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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#681

Post by zamalek »

chris_wot wrote: post #149
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

I'd like to see them subpoenaed to explain what they were doing. They were deliberately violating the law, and trying to avoid detection just makes things much, much worse. This has got to be illegal.

Entrapment is also illegal.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#682

Post by nikcub »

pharrington wrote: post #627
nikcub wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In cities where Uber is legal and regulated, they are not breaking any laws and have no requirement to track city investigations against them. Uber were also being disobedient in order to get better laws for they and everybody else to abide by. Better yet - their technique pretty much won. There aren't many cities remaining that still attempt to ban ride sharing.

My reply to aianus applies equally to this. Consider further; how did the narrative of Uber needing to break the law to disrupt (read: try to overthrow) the existing taxi industry morph into excusing their practices as affecting positive social change ? Remember, the context of the boycotts during the American civil rights movement was never to "disrupt" southern businesses.

Again, there are plenty of cities where Uber have been successful where they didn't break any laws. Likewise there are many cities that have banned Uber where they don't operate. The number of cities where they operate in a grey area of regulation are often few and often for short periods of time.

Uber are more interested in operating in a regulated environment, hence all their lobbying and hence why their first hires in new cities are usually government liaison people.

Uber is equally successful in cities where it was initially thought illegal, in cities where it was always legal and in cities where it became legal.

Many other companies have ridden the coattails of the regulatory work that Uber has done.

If they were an "anarcho-capitalistic" business then they simply wouldn't care for the laws anywhere. They'd be operating in Nevada, Austin and in all of these other cities that have since banned them. They would be signing up drivers with no license or background checks. They wouldn't need any government liaison people. They'd do no lobbying, etc. and as bad as they are - they aren't that company (although many want them to be)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#683

Post by usrusr »

lacampbell wrote: post #535
sgift wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. Sure you can. Just leave their jurisdiction. I've heard Somalia is nice.

What have you heard about Somalia? Please give a brief over view of what you know about it, and what about it you heard was nice.

It demonstrates all the benefits of the very weak government some people wish for.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#684

Post by namocat »

harryh wrote: post #148
striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They will succeed or fail based upon their ability to attract customers and sell a product at a profit. I suspect most customers don't care about any of your bullet points. They care if Uber can get them where they want to go faster and/or cheaper than other options.

In other words, the end justifies the means. Uber should make that their motto.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#685

Post by pyrale »

odbol wrote: post #639
booleandilemma wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sorry, Uber doesn't get to resort to some kind of corporate vigilantism and "do whatever it can to continue operating". Uber can go through the proper legal channels to address the concerns it has.

Laws take years, even decades to change. We'd never have any progress if every technological advancement had to wait for the law to catch up and regulate it.

We do have quite a lot of advancement which comes without violating the law. Also breaking the social canvas to correct something you feel is unfairly repressed/enforced is not something to do lightly.

Let me give you an example here. I think Uber is a bad thing, but there's nothing I can do to oppose them, legally, that is. Should I carry out my own justice, illegally ? You can see that this pattern of thought quickly falls down, because making compromises is actually an important part of living in society.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#686

Post by nikcub »

firebones wrote: post #670
JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being willing to break dumb rules to show how pointless they are is an excellent public service. Breaking rules that stand in the way of your profit is completely different, and it's important to call it out. Depends on whether you view this particular detail as part of providing a service people want (and thus want to pay for), or whether you view it as exclusively in the service of profit (whether it benefits peo…

When it comes to providing a service that people "want (and thus want to pay for)", all sorts of things could be sold to people that fit that criteria. There's no moral or legal exemption for "meeting demand" that suddenly makes it "far more reasonable" than the base instinct of "making money". By this criteria, Theranos was merely "meeting demand" for finger pricks over needles, FDA and their "regulations" be damned…

> You can find that same rationalization in many organized crime movies.

Those organized crime groups are usually also involved in businesses where bad law has made it illegal.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#687

Post by darawk »

camus2 wrote: post #666
darawk wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government enforcing laws is immoral at times. It is the law in Saudi Arabia to stone homosexuals to death.

Saudi Arabia is a monarchy and theocratic dictatorship. The law of this country is not made by the people for the people unlike any decent democracy. Picking up the worst example on the planet to try to make your argument look good discredits you.

Ok, so how about slavery. Or eugenics laws in the 1930s. Or Jim Crow. Or anti-sodomy laws in the US. Or women not being allowed to vote. Or like, any, of the literally thousands of horribly immoral laws that have been on the books in literally every country on the planet.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#688

Post by usrusr »

scarhill wrote: post #633
sqeaky wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they continue to evade law enforcement and ignore the laws that taxi companies follow they will have an unfair advantage over taxi companies. Taxi companies have and will continue to go out of business. If you follow this reasoning to its logical extreme you have an Uber monopoly.

That might be bad for taxi companies, but what happens to Lyft in that scenario? Won't other ride sharing companies start up? Uber only becomes a monopoly if they can keep all competition out, not just taxi companies. Taxi companies succeeded in doing that for decades by colluding with politicians to limit competition. Uber would have to adopt a similar strategy to get anything close to a monopoly.

If Uber ever reaches a saturation so high that much of congestion is made up of ubers, they will literally be blocking access to potential customers. An uber will always be near, but an "unter" won't make it to pickup in time, because of all the congesting ubers.

Driving as a service always operates on public infrastructure and medallion systems are there to protect those commons from excessive use. If uber does not like the rules of road use, they are free to purchase their own right of ways. It's America, nobody will stop them if they show up with enough cash. Also, no more speeding tickets for uber drivers!

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#689

Post by [deleted] »

pharrington wrote: post #565
aianus wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how they aren't "creating better laws for everyone to abide by". They're not a monopoly on ridesharing and because of their efforts converting the hearts and minds of consumers and politicians others can do it too like Juno, Tesla, Lyft, etc.

Assertion: medallion regulations are currently onerous and against the financial interests of cities and citizens. Uber's public and explicit proposal to change the medallion system: " " Your statement applies to literally every company that has lobbyists. You need way more than that to present evidence for your claim. Again, civil disobedience's core mechanism for gaining the support needed to enact the change it pu…

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#690

Post by TeMPOraL »

odbol wrote: post #650
TeMPOraL wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an argument. Getting people to "stampede" to you is trivial - just drop the prices well below market average, and the herd will quickly follow, regardless of whether or not your service is actually better. Doing that is difficult (that's the point of competition), but becomes much easier if you can blatantly break the law and get away with it.

Come on, there's no way you can say taxis are superior to a frickin button that you press to instantly get a car. Even if the prices were the same, I'm pretty sure most people would still choose Uber.

In most of Europe, taxi companies had mobile applications for some time now. Uber is much less innovative than it may seem in America.
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