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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#631

Post by sdenton4 »

aantix wrote: post #611
azernik wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was not, as far as I understand, opposed to laws just because they are laws. She had very specific moral objections to very specific laws. Anti-racism != anarchism.

Uber is... Anarchy? Like in the movie Thunderdome? Sure. Their opposition wasn't arbitrary; they knew they could provide a better service outside the monopolistic constraints that were already in place. So they fought those battles and because of those battles, everyone gets to experience a much better ride service than the antiquated taxi system.

Everyone gets to experience fancy VC subsidized rides, in any case. I don't see any clear argument that uber is actually more economically efficient than a standard cab...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#632

Post by nohugsneeded »

avehn wrote: post #516
jlarocco wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they have an obligation to obey the law. I disagree that they should lobby to change it. I understand that realistically that is what they will do, but I don't think it's the ethically correct thing. Laws are in place to benefit all of society, they shouldn't be changed on behalf of specific corporations, regardless of how much money the "donate".

Laws are in place to benefit those in power not "all of society," as anyone who does not benefit from them can attest to. And I agree, corporations cannot be allowed to change the laws to suit them.

well, corporations can't change laws. They can only lobby. And laws are passed by the majority to benefit a majority, that's how a democracy works.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#633

Post by scarhill »

sqeaky wrote: post #488
scarhill wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you describe the steps that would lead to Uber becoming a monopoly? I can't imagine that happening without government help, can you? And if it requires that kind of help, is the problem with Uber or government?

If they continue to evade law enforcement and ignore the laws that taxi companies follow they will have an unfair advantage over taxi companies. Taxi companies have and will continue to go out of business. If you follow this reasoning to its logical extreme you have an Uber monopoly.

That might be bad for taxi companies, but what happens to Lyft in that scenario? Won't other ride sharing companies start up?

Uber only becomes a monopoly if they can keep all competition out, not just taxi companies. Taxi companies succeeded in doing that for decades by colluding with politicians to limit competition. Uber would have to adopt a similar strategy to get anything close to a monopoly.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#634

Post by LnxPrgr3 »

skookumchuck wrote: post #619
LnxPrgr3 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/01/macys-shopl... Not killing, but taking of liberty and property through their own extrajudicial system of justice.

And a judge ruled that Macy's did not have a legitimate power to do that. This example does not make the case that corporations have such power.

The law did grant them powers to run pieces of this scheme that a judge decided they took way too far. And they got to run it for years before a judge stopped it.

And AFAIK no one running Macy's went to jail, so the penalty isn't the same as I'd get if I, say, imprisoned my neighbors and stole their credit cards to get payment for packages I think they stole from the porch.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#635

Post by aantix »

sdenton4 wrote: post #631
aantix wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber is... Anarchy? Like in the movie Thunderdome? Sure. Their opposition wasn't arbitrary; they knew they could provide a better service outside the monopolistic constraints that were already in place. So they fought those battles and because of those battles, everyone gets to experience a much better ride service than the antiquated taxi system.

Everyone gets to experience fancy VC subsidized rides, in any case. I don't see any clear argument that uber is actually more economically efficient than a standard cab...

My time is worth something; standing on a corner at 3pm, checking the time, calling the main office - "oh yeah, he's five minutes away", 45 minutes still waiting, call again..

With Uber/Lyft, I can see when they'll arrive. I can plan to do something with that time if the wait is long enough. I can quickly redirect them to where I am if there's a misunderstanding.

Yes, it's more efficient.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#636

Post by fjdlwlv »

avehn wrote: post #516
jlarocco wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they have an obligation to obey the law. I disagree that they should lobby to change it. I understand that realistically that is what they will do, but I don't think it's the ethically correct thing. Laws are in place to benefit all of society, they shouldn't be changed on behalf of specific corporations, regardless of how much money the "donate".

Laws are in place to benefit those in power not "all of society," as anyone who does not benefit from them can attest to. And I agree, corporations cannot be allowed to change the laws to suit them.

In a democracy, the voters are the ones in power

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#637

Post by fjdlwlv »

someguydave wrote: post #604
yummyfajitas wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you oppose Apple and other tech companies lobbying for gay and transgender rights? Or Google lobbying for net neutrality?

No but I am for Google and Apple investors holding the management to their fiduciary duty to turn a profit. Lobbying for gay rights seems very loosely connected to that goal. Edit: There is not a fiduciary duty to turn a profit, but there is a fiduciary duty to put the corporation's interests above your personal interests.

There is no fiduciary duty to turn a profit

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#638

Post by someguydave »

fjdlwlv wrote: post #637
someguydave wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but I am for Google and Apple investors holding the management to their fiduciary duty to turn a profit. Lobbying for gay rights seems very loosely connected to that goal. Edit: There is not a fiduciary duty to turn a profit, but there is a fiduciary duty to put the corporation's interests above your personal interests.

There is no fiduciary duty to turn a profit

You are right - thanks for the correction. However, there is certainly a fiduciary duty to put the interests of the corporation above your personal interests as a high-level manager.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#639

Post by odbol »

booleandilemma wrote: post #628
mkolodny wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or like non-Jews hiding Jews from the Nazi police. Obviously that's a dramatic example, but so is the drug dealer example. If Uber believes that the taxi industry is wrongfully colluding with the government to try to stop Uber from operating, then it's not necessarily wrong for Uber to do whatever it can to continue operating.

No, sorry, Uber doesn't get to resort to some kind of corporate vigilantism and "do whatever it can to continue operating". Uber can go through the proper legal channels to address the concerns it has.

Laws take years, even decades to change. We'd never have any progress if every technological advancement had to wait for the law to catch up and regulate it.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#640

Post by [deleted] »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #533
ForHackernews wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

Do regular citizens, such as Rosa Parks, not have the same obligation? Personally I consider civil disobedience of unjust laws to be acceptable, for either a single person or for an organized group of people (such as Uber).

[deleted]
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