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The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

economist.com

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Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#171

Post by Exofunctor »

ascorbic wrote: post #165
Exofunctor wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IOM and UNHCR estimated 1 million refugees back in December 2015. More since then. > This is aggressive against millions of people. Not sure how. You can describe it however you like, but that won't change the fact that it's true. > This is hate speech. Criticizing European politicians is hate speech? Interesting. (Side note: this is why people don't like "hate speech" laws. A surprising number of people think "hate…

"European politicians don't seem to give much of a shit about Europeans" sounds a lot like "who will stand up for white people"

The whole "if you support Europe in any respect, you must be a white supremacist" meme is one of the most inane things I've heard in a long time. Europe isn't all white, and hundreds of millions of white people aren't in Europe. You've made a lazy attack that doesn't actually address what I said.

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#172

Post by Exofunctor »

lispm wrote: post #167
Exofunctor wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IOM and UNHCR estimated 1 million refugees back in December 2015. More since then. > This is aggressive against millions of people. Not sure how. You can describe it however you like, but that won't change the fact that it's true. > This is hate speech. Criticizing European politicians is hate speech? Interesting. (Side note: this is why people don't like "hate speech" laws. A surprising number of people think "hate…

> IOM and UNHCR estimated 1 million refugees back in December 2015. More since then. True, but they have not been 'imported' by politicians. These people fled from the war in Syria. Germany has a right for these people to ask for asylum in its constitution. Unlimited. > Criticizing European politicians is hate speech Claiming that European politicians give a shit (his words) about their citizens is not 'criticizing'…

> Claiming that European politicians give a shit (his words) about their citizens is not 'criticizing' anything. It's just hate speech against politicians

This is probably the strongest invocation of Poe's law I've seen in the last few years.

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#173

Post by Exofunctor »

lispm wrote: post #169
Exofunctor wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burg's comments put Schultz's ability to support pro-Israeli policies at risk; if he's known to be an ardent supporter of Israel for ideological reasons (to the exclusion of concern for Germany), people will be more critical of his motivations when it comes time to e.g. send military aid to Israel. Calling out your supporters, when being a supporter is politically contested, isn't a good idea. If Burg was lying, he'd…

Germany has supported Israel for decades. That's not controversial.

Stating that Germany only exists for the sake of Israel is controversial, however. (At least, I hope it is! I hope most Germans have enough self-interest to dislike the idea of being a vassal state.)

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#174

Post by lispm »

Exofunctor wrote: post #172
lispm wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IOM and UNHCR estimated 1 million refugees back in December 2015. More since then. True, but they have not been 'imported' by politicians. These people fled from the war in Syria. Germany has a right for these people to ask for asylum in its constitution. Unlimited. > Criticizing European politicians is hate speech Claiming that European politicians give a shit (his words) about their citizens is not 'criticizing'…

> Claiming that European politicians give a shit (his words) about their citizens is not 'criticizing' anything. It's just hate speech against politicians This is probably the strongest invocation of Poe's law I've seen in the last few years.

It was you who said that.

I'm European and German. I feel well supported by politicians like Merkel and Schulz. Both are among the most popular politicians in Germany and there is a reason Merkel is chancellor: people have voted for her politics. After the next election either Merkel or Schulz will be chancellor.

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#175

Post by erispoe »

Exofunctor wrote: post #157
vacri wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One significant thing that you are missing is a sense of making good on past misdeeds. Europe owes it's economic power to centuries of fucking over Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. And when they de-colonised those places, they set up systems to keep them fucked up. So when you see refugees trying to escape those places, there is a sense of duty to them. A clear case of this is Syria, which is in the shitter because…

Yes, you're right; European politics has fallen victim to ridiculous notions of ancestral guilt. Is it any wonder that people who had no involvement in something that happened hundreds of years ago are unhappy that they're being punished for it? > European unity is about more than free trade. You're right again, which is why it's insane to drive a wedge between Europeans with politically and socially untenable forced…

Just because you say it's "socially untenable forced immigration" does not make it so. You have no evidence that it is, indeed, untenable. Rants from your "expat friends" are not evidence, they are anecdotes.

Germany has been accepting much more immigrant refugees than other European countries, out of moral duty but also out of economic interest. Germany has had pro-immigration programs for years before that, especially after the great recession, because the country has a deficit of young working-age people to contribute to their economy.

Some refugees have committed crimes and offenses, as it is likely to happen from any large group of people. I have yet to see any evidence that they do it in higher proportion that european-born population.

You can take any anecdote and turn it into fear-mongering. Before we had refugees, romani people were the target of choice, before that, south-europeans. Nationalists have always found a convenient scapegoat.

And by the way, there is no evidence that immigration, even mass choc-wave immigration, has adverse effects on the economy of a country.

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#176

Post by lispm »

Exofunctor wrote: post #173
lispm wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has supported Israel for decades. That's not controversial.

Stating that Germany only exists for the sake of Israel is controversial, however. (At least, I hope it is! I hope most Germans have enough self-interest to dislike the idea of being a vassal state.)

> Stating that Germany only exists for the sake of Israel is controversial, however.

It isn't. Nobody, besides some right-wing Germans, cares about it, since it obvious has nothing to do with reality.

Germany exists for many reasons and Martin Schulz is a another good candidate for the next chancellor.

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#177

Post by Florin_Andrei »

lend000 wrote: post #69
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what Putin says.

> That's what Putin says. If Putin says something, it's wrong? I guess that's a good way to reason if you don't want to think for yourself.

Oh, so the attitude is complete with the shallow "intellectual superiority", I see.

Carry on then.

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#178

Post by areyousure »

Dobbs wrote: post #22
harigov wrote: post #6

What is going on in this world? I was reading news today that the parties on the right side of political spectrum are gaining ground all over Europe. US already has Republicans in power. Every country is becoming more nationalistic. What is driving this change? AFAICT there are no major issues that should have caused this.

This is not nationalistic. One of the standard things that happens with Visa costs is reciprocity. If you charge my citizens a fee for a visa, then I'll charge your citizens. What is different here is that the EU is involved, and the EU is many countries which generally act like a bloc. So the US grants Free Visa Access to 23 of the 28 members of the EU countries and likewise those 23 countries grant Free Visa Access…

Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, and Romania are not in the Schengen Area.

It is not clear to me whether by "one of the five other countries" you mean that any of them or whether you mean Poland.

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#179

Post by vacri »

Exofunctor wrote: post #157
vacri wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One significant thing that you are missing is a sense of making good on past misdeeds. Europe owes it's economic power to centuries of fucking over Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. And when they de-colonised those places, they set up systems to keep them fucked up. So when you see refugees trying to escape those places, there is a sense of duty to them. A clear case of this is Syria, which is in the shitter because…

Yes, you're right; European politics has fallen victim to ridiculous notions of ancestral guilt. Is it any wonder that people who had no involvement in something that happened hundreds of years ago are unhappy that they're being punished for it? > European unity is about more than free trade. You're right again, which is why it's insane to drive a wedge between Europeans with politically and socially untenable forced…

Hundreds of years ago? Decolonialisation was still going strong in the 1960s, with some last vestiges as late as the 1980s.

> they're being punished for it?

This is such a childish view. Recognising that you've benefitted from the suffering of others and wanting to share back some of those benefits is not "punishment".

Re: The European Parliament votes non-bindingly to reintroduce visas for Americans

#180

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

ginko wrote: post #52
pklausler wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a while, I had thought that the modern world had finally transcended the grip of medieval-minded ignorance. But the medievals didn't go away, and they eventually organized and voted and, in the U.S., got lucky with a system that disproportionately allocates presidential voting power, allowing the GOP to win 3 out of the past 7 elections despite having won the vote only once.

Nation states are an invention of the 19th century. Give the Middle Ages more credit.

Right, I'd rather live in a fiefdom.
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