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In praise of cash

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Re: In praise of cash

#231

Post by modeless »

modeless wrote: post #199
problems wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they can still come and beat you for it. Other cryptocurrencies like ZCash, Monero, etc solve this in a more elegant way by making transaction actually anonymous.

While Bitcoin is not completely anonymous, it is also not completely transparent. The blockchain does not contain names and things can be obfuscated in various ways. Furthermore, a truly 100% anonymous system of money without any exceptions may not actually be desirable from a societal point of view, as it would enable things like assassination markets.

I'll also add that if Bitcoin had started out completely anonymous like Zcash, it likely would have been outlawed in many countries by now including the US and China. Certainly no exchanges connected to the traditional banking system would be allowed to exist.

Re: In praise of cash

#232

Post by alkonaut »

Couldn't a lot of the downsides with the credit card system be at least fixed somewhat by anonymization? E.g a card that generates new numbers for each transaction stops the store from tracking my purchasing habits. Similarly a store that doesn't record any more than the amount to the cc company limits what is recorded.

I'm not saying this is in the interest of either retailers, banks or credit card companies - but it should at least be possible in theory to improve on the status quo e.g by regulation.

The best solution imho would simply be a credit card you can "charge" with plastic cash from your bank account, instead of going to the ATM. The amount stored on the card is then used like cash and then it's re-charged from the account when it's empty.

All the cc company sees is the charging withdrawals and the retailer doesn't see any credit card information as the transaction is made with "cash".

I have seen attempts at this (e.g in Sweden 10-15 years ago) but none successful unfortunately.

Re: In praise of cash

#233

Post by petre »

M_Grey wrote: post #78
CPLX wrote: post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

A cashless society would be an attempt to create a society that lacks basic economic freedom, but it would also fail. People will simply return to barter, and the use of whatever precious metals/stones/etc are hot that year.

People were using rice as cash in Japan back in the 8th century. Or arrowheads. Depends wether you want to eat or wage some war. AK-47 rifles would be the modern equivalent of arrowheads.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_currency

Re: In praise of cash

#234

Post by marak830 »

ISL wrote: post #10
marak830 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you mean less than? The processing fees part is throwing me off. I do agree though, in Japan I'm seeing a lot of credit or phone based transactions , I almost never carry cash now. Side note: my wallets last longer!

Interesting -- just got back from Japan, traveling in smaller communities. Almost all of our transactions were in cash.

Yes while travelling it's a huge cash based society here, but Tokyo/yokohama are really leaning towards cards/suica(the train ticket pre-charge card)/Edi(mobile phone payment system) and such.

Re: In praise of cash

#235

Post by delinka »

Animats wrote: post #189
ghaff wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can go weeks without touching cash these days. Nonetheless, I find the idea that I could be prevented from making a person-to-person financial transaction for even a modest amount without a paper trail pretty unsettling.

In China, all ATMs are supposed to record serial numbers.[1][2] That's already deployed. There's no secret about this; some ATMs in Hong Kong give you a list of the serial numbers of the bills just dispensed on their receipt. Coming up next, face recognition.[3] Many ATMs already have the hardware. To improve counterfeit recognition, most ATMs which accept cash now take a high-resolution image of both sides of the bi…

But that still doesn't track with whom you spent that cash.

Re: In praise of cash

#236

Post by vkou »

delinka wrote: post #235
Animats wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, all ATMs are supposed to record serial numbers.[1][2] That's already deployed. There's no secret about this; some ATMs in Hong Kong give you a list of the serial numbers of the bills just dispensed on their receipt. Coming up next, face recognition.[3] Many ATMs already have the hardware. To improve counterfeit recognition, most ATMs which accept cash now take a high-resolution image of both sides of the bi…

But that still doesn't track with whom you spent that cash.

Unless your counterparty goes ahead and deposits it in their bank at the end of the day.

If five of the twenty bills you withdrew at 9 am were deposited by Seven-Eleven at 7 pm, I can guess that you went shopping at Seven-Eleven... And more likely then not, I'll be right.

A particular bill does not change hands very frequently between ending up at a bank. If anything, a bill that you withdrew not ending up back in circulation is suspicious.

Re: In praise of cash

#237

Post by vkou »

M_Grey wrote: post #78
CPLX wrote: post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

A cashless society would be an attempt to create a society that lacks basic economic freedom, but it would also fail. People will simply return to barter, and the use of whatever precious metals/stones/etc are hot that year.

Unfortunately, the US Government does not accept tax payments in turnips, emeralds, pirate treasure, moonshine, or Eth. Until that changes, you will need to interface with the USD economy.

The US government also expects your tax payment on an annual basis.

Re: In praise of cash

#238

Post by bjelkeman-again »

otakucode wrote: post #212
CPLX wrote: post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

And don't forget that 'payment processing' is never free. In fact, it is never even a flat fee despite the fact that it does not actually cost anything more to transfer a larger number over a network than it does a smaller one. Yet people seem to have no problem handing over the majority of their economy to 'processed' payments which empower banks with the ability to do nothing less than levy taxes and exert the same…

Cash handling is not free either. Large amounts require security or increased risk.

Re: In praise of cash

#239

Post by dragonwriter »

otakucode wrote: post #218
colorint wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two things working against this theory. First, such systems only work in the presence of a unit of account, because otherwise it's impossible to coherently price items in a pure unlike-for-unlike barter system. The unit of account would, of course, be money. So what you're talking about isn't a collapse of the money system, but black markets. When you say "people who want to keep their transactions off the bo…

It seems that you know a good deal more than me about economics, so allow me to ask a question please. You say this: >Second, the value of state money is maintained by the state's ability to levy taxes Does that also hold when the state allows the vast majority of the transactions within the state to be mediated by banks and payment processors who charge a proportional "processing fee" on every single transaction whi…

> Does that also hold when the state allows the vast majority of the transactions within the state to be mediated by banks and payment processors who charge a proportional "processing fee" on every single transaction which becomes essentially indistinguishable from a tax?

The existence of other necessary service providers who also.demans payment in the government's preferred currency is an additional source of support for currency value, not a countervailing force.

And it's often largely a secondary product of the government requiring the use of the currnecy, anyway, especially when they are heavily regulated creatures of law, like banking corporations.

Re: In praise of cash

#240

Post by rz2k »

giardini wrote: post #167
ghaff wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can go weeks without touching cash these days. Nonetheless, I find the idea that I could be prevented from making a person-to-person financial transaction for even a modest amount without a paper trail pretty unsettling.

Last year I tired of reconciling my credit card and checkbook accounts, so shifted to using cash only (I have credit cards if there's an emergency). So far I'm spending ~10% less each month. I'm more careful about purchases. I get and seek cash discounts. Best of all I don't need to do the reconciliation.

How do you ask for a cash discount?
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