Live data from Hacker News

In praise of cash

aeon.co

111–120 of 369 posts

Re: In praise of cash

#111
post #4

In my experience as a college student, it is exceedingly rare to use cash, especially cash in amounts greater than $5, for anything other than crime. While you can argue that one should be able to reasonably break laws and not get caught - anything else is a surveillance state and there is value to discretionary enforcement - I wouldn't characterize criticism of cash as just manipulative. For example, on my campus, t…

Have you never paid for admittance to a club? Paid a busker? Gone shopping at a thrift store or pawn shop? Bought something at a garage sale? Paid for dinner and tipped without having to split the check for n different cards? Your post reeks of inexperience.

In the Nordic countries, you can certainly pay admittance to a club and shop in a thrift shop with a card. You can pay by bank transfer done with a phone app (MobilePay in Denmark, Swish in Sweden, etc) at a garage sale. At the last garage sale I went to, there wasn't anyone around -- just a sign saying everything was priced, and to transfer the money to 12 34 56 78 with MobilePay.

In fact, trying to pay cash can cause problems -- so many people use the electronic methods, the doorman might not have any change. (This is often the case at the weird gigs I go to, where only 25 people attend anyway, and it barely breaks even for the promoter).

I've heard of a trial to donate money to the homeless using a card, but it was only a trial. It's not normal to tip in a restaurant (or anywhere else).

However, the post spoke of having to buy illegal alcohol at college, so the person is clearly in America. But there are always queues at the cash machines near Christiania in Copenhagen, where everyone goes to buy weed. That's the only remaining thing Danes use cash for...

Re: In praise of cash

#112
post #25

Do people remember when companies in the past provide his own currency to control people them own? Because he have your money, he own you.

Well, governments stepped on it, and moved the point of control a notch above.

What is unsettling is that governments could create a digital payments system that didn't depend on any single authority. This would be convenient enough that I can't imagine it not gaining the entire market (even from cash), and making this move much more palatable. This would be a much easier way for govs to get their so desired universal surveillance. Yet none is doing that. Why?

Re: In praise of cash

#113
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cashless society would be an attempt to create a society that lacks basic economic freedom, but it would also fail. People will simply return to barter, and the use of whatever precious metals/stones/etc are hot that year.

> People will simply return to barter. In what societies have humans used barter? I suspect we would instead use something like tobacco, laundry detergent, or startup t-shirts as cash or we would keep a mental register of who owes whom a favor.

> In what societies have humans used barter?

All of them, including (but not limited to, since barter predates money) all the ones that also have a money economy.

Re: In praise of cash

#114
post #27
post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

I'm a bitcoin supporter (and user) for this among many other reasons.

I don't see how Bitcoin solves the anonymity problem cash does. If anything, banks and intelligence agencies would love a world where everyone transacts on a distributed ledger.

Re: In praise of cash

#115
post #78
post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

A cashless society would be an attempt to create a society that lacks basic economic freedom, but it would also fail. People will simply return to barter, and the use of whatever precious metals/stones/etc are hot that year.

I question the assumption that this would fail outright. It would likely result in a hybrid visible/invisible transactions.

Look at how the underground economy of drugs uses commodities like detergent [1]. This would just take that economy to the next level. Clearly to prevent currency from failing outright, going cashless would likely result in the ban (effective or not) of cryptocurrencies and the like.

[1] http://nymag.com/news/features/tide-detergent-drugs-2013-1/

Re: In praise of cash

#116
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The appeal is largely that credit cards let you spend money you don't have, and debit cards, by definition, don't. For people who have a hard time operating within their budget with credit cards, this is a huge difference.

Well yes, but surely that's something that cash does even better, isn't it? I take a fixed amount of cash out once a week and that's everything I'm going to spend that week. Not only can you not spend money you don't have, you can't accidentally spend more money than you were planning to spend. (I carry a few extra weeks' buffer for emergencies, but could put that in a separate pocket or something if it ever became a…

> Well yes, but surely that's something that cash does even better, isn't it?

[...]

> Agree re credit cards, but I never carry a balance, they're just a payment mechanism.

I think you just answered your own question.

For most people here (Holland), a credit card is not a 'default' (and so many people don't even have one). We still use our debit card all the time because it's so much more convenient as payment method than messing around with cash.

Over the past few years they've been rolling out contactless payment, which is even better. You see the amount of a screen, swipe your card, and only after x transactions or over a certain amount are you asked to use the chip and enter your PIN. I'm pretty sure most of these machines also allow you to use your phone (or watch) to pay for things, but that's not as common yet.

Or another example: one of the big supermarket chains here has been rolling out self-checkout kiosks at many of their stores, making the process even easier: take the stuff you want, scan it, swipe your card, and just walk away!

Re: In praise of cash

#117
> This second mode of money is essentially private, running off an infrastructure collectively controlled by profit-seeking commercial banks and a host of private payment intermediaries – like Visa and Mastercard – that work with them. The data inscriptions in your bank account are not state money.

This raises a question in my mind which probably shows my ignorance of finance more than anything, but here goes:

Why not just have a public system of electronic transactions?

What I mean is, the current system of electronic transactions feels to me a lot like the way things were back in Ye Olden Days with cash. Cash didn't start out as state money, it started out as private money -- notes issued by individual banks, promising to pay the recipient in coin or specie on behalf of the bearer. (Which is why paper money is still referred to in some places as "bank notes.")

Which was fine for a long time, but as commerce got bigger and more widely distributed, it reached a point where it didn't scale anymore. Every note was only as dependable as the bank it was drawn on, and the farther away the transaction was from that bank the harder that reliability was to evaluate -- uncertainty which added risk to transactions. So governments started removing that uncertainty by organizing central banks and issuing their own notes, which became the paper currency we all know today.

Fast forward to now. We have modern cash, which has all the virtues the article cites; and we have a separate system of online payments which lacks those virtues, run by private companies who take a non-trivial piece of every transaction for themselves. Those drawbacks weren't too important when electronic payments were a new thing, because it wasn't clear then that they would ever be more than a niche product for the convenience of rich people. But now they're everywhere, and it seems inevitable that at some point they'll become the universal method of payment.

So why not do like we did with bank notes and cut out the middleman? Why not have electronic payments systems operated by governments, in the same way that they print currency? It seems like it could solve a lot the of problems with a cashless society at a stroke, and help the economy to boot by returning the percentage of each transaction that used to go to the banks back to productive circulation.

(The cynical part of me says that the reason is because the middlemen in this case are banks, and in the modern world banks tell governments what to do rather than the other way around.)

Re: In praise of cash

#118
post #78
post #9

The core concept to remember I think is that there are two ways to pay for things: * Ways that involve cash or cash equivalents * Ways where a purchase requires the permission of someone else Just think of the word authorization, which is a required element of essentially all non-cash transactions. It has the word authority embedded right in it. If you're OK with that concept, you are necessarily OK with the idea tha…

A cashless society would be an attempt to create a society that lacks basic economic freedom, but it would also fail. People will simply return to barter, and the use of whatever precious metals/stones/etc are hot that year.

There's two things working against this theory.

First, such systems only work in the presence of a unit of account, because otherwise it's impossible to coherently price items in a pure unlike-for-unlike barter system. The unit of account would, of course, be money. So what you're talking about isn't a collapse of the money system, but black markets. When you say "people who want to keep their transactions off the books will use black markets," it sounds much less prophetic.

Second, the value of state money is maintained by the state's ability to levy taxes, and the state only accepts tax payments in its own money. For people living "on the grid" in a country with a credible government, this means that most of their economic action has to happen in the state's money. Since people have to, at the very least, acquire enough money to pay their taxes, and most people don't want to put up with multiple systems of exchange.

Not coincidentally, this is also the biggest hurdle for serious adoption of cryptocurrencies.

Re: In praise of cash

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it, but think of what you're getting in return. The example in the article, about the Coke vending machine. Imagine in the past, before vending machines - the only way you would be able to buy a Coke in that particular area would be if there was enough foot traffic to justify a full time real human being to sit there all day, with inventory of soft drinks, and exchange your cash for them. The opportunity cost a…

An electronic payments system-based vending machine is risker (where the risk is to your ability as a consumer to get a coke on demand) than the current model (coin operated vending machine) since it depends on connectivity to the payments network to function. This is easily interrupted through malice, negligence, or oversight. In my experience coin op vending machines by and large work; bill readers are hit and miss…

The Chip+PIN system includes an offline mode, which is especially suitable for small transactions like this.

"The transaction is authorized either online and offline. For an online authorization, transactions proceed as they do today in the U.S. with magnetic stripe cards. The transaction information is sent to the issuer, along with a transaction-specific cryptogram, and the issuer either authorizes or declines the transaction. In an offline EMV transaction, the card and terminal communicate and use issuer-defined risk parameters that are set in the card to determine whether the transaction can be authorized. Offline transactions are used when terminals do not have online connectivity (e.g., at a ticket kiosk) or in countries where telecommunications costs are high."

http://www.emv-connection.com/emv-faq/

It's in wide use in Europe, for instance a ticket machine on a train or tram, or for low-value transactions (bus tickets, fast food), or where there's no connection (purchase on a plane -- where they will probably only accept credit cards beyond a certain amount).

Re: In praise of cash

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it, but think of what you're getting in return. The example in the article, about the Coke vending machine. Imagine in the past, before vending machines - the only way you would be able to buy a Coke in that particular area would be if there was enough foot traffic to justify a full time real human being to sit there all day, with inventory of soft drinks, and exchange your cash for them. The opportunity cost a…

An electronic payments system-based vending machine is risker (where the risk is to your ability as a consumer to get a coke on demand) than the current model (coin operated vending machine) since it depends on connectivity to the payments network to function. This is easily interrupted through malice, negligence, or oversight. In my experience coin op vending machines by and large work; bill readers are hit and miss…

In Japan, vending machines that take Pasmo and similar smart cards are pretty common. But Japan is pretty much an outlier AFAIK in its extremely widespread use of this type of technology.
Post reply on HN