How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#241

Post by sgift » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:44 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #121

nemacol wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. The fact that you don't have a say in Uber's corporate decisions is irrelevant, because you can simply stop using it. You don't need a say. The fact that you can't opt out of government is why…

> The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily.

Sure you can. Just leave their jurisdiction. I've heard Somalia is nice.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#242

Post by freehunter » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:44 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #217

us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

> [credit card BIN numbers] plus public payroll records Do California public records really make available where specific public employees bank?

Anyone who has a California State and Federal Employees Credit Union debit card is probably a good indicator.

I saw an Illinois State Police Federal Credit Union branch recently and really thought to myself... that might be giving away a little more information than I'd be comfortable with if I were a cop. I mean, anyone going to that credit union is pretty likely to be, you know, a police officer. So if a criminal was trying to track down a police officer they had beef with, where would they look? Seems pretty obvious. Seems pretty dangerous.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#243

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:45 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #55

colemickens wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this confuse me. Are you accusing the author of fabricating facts? Do you contest the facts or testimonies in the article? What is the justification for calling this a "hit piece"? Did you actually read it? Why is it surprising that a company under the spotlight... winds up with more journalistic investigations?

When I was in high school, a teacher I had for a video journalism course emphatically hammered home the point that there was no such thing as unbiased media: the stories you choose to cover or not cover, the use of pretty much any adjective, the phrasing of the headline, placement, abundance of quotes, frequency of consulting expert opinions, use of statistics of varying quality, etc. create an inescapable subjectivi…

Bias always exists to some extent but not all media are equally biased or biased in the same way. Citing this as a reason to dismiss any media content that makes you uncomfortable is itself an example of subjective bias. You can aim for a kind of objectivity by attempting to maximize the predictive power of the information that you convey to as wide an audience as possible.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#244

Post by scarhill » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

nemacol wrote: post #100

lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

If 49% of people stop using Uber, Uber loses almost half its revenue and will probably be forced to change its practices or go out of business. What happens if 49% of people don't vote for a US presidential candidate?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#245

Post by redbergy » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

alphonsegaston wrote: post #188

JoshTriplett wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if local law enforcement officer was posing undercover as an Uber customer as part of a sexual assault investigation or trying to track down all drivers in relation to a recent crime? If they were, then I suspect that Uber would go out of their way to cooperate, using the detailed information they have on ride histories. Get a warrant, serve it to Uber, and get the data needed for the investigation. This ignor…

They're pre-emptively choosing to obstruct enforcement of whatever laws they deem unacceptable. So that's quite a rosy expectation about their willingness to cooperate.

I don't think you could consider this obstruction. It's their service, it's private, they can serve data to users the way they wish. There is a method and a system in place if law enforcement can prove they need unfettered access – a warrant issued by a judge.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#246

Post by tzs » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #168

fisherjeff wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first six digits identify the issuing institution. Here's a free service for looking up a bank based on that information: https://binbase.com

Interesting! But don't the CC agreements require them to only use CC numbers for the absolute minimum purposes necessary to process the transaction? (They can't store the numbers themselves except the last four digits IIRC.) So (based on the site) they could presumably use that number as part of fraud prevention but not to "identify possible narcs" -- I imagine the CC companies will be livid at this usage.

> They can't store the numbers themselves except the last four digits IIRC

Companies can store the whole number. That's how on-file payments and automatic subscription renewal payments work.

What you are probably recalling is a PCI rule that requires keeping the credit card number protected, such as storing it encrypted and only letting things that are sending transactions to the credit card network have access to the plaintext. That rule has an exception for the last 4 digits and the first 6 digits.

For example, when your customer support people look up the history of a customer they are helping, if your account info viewing tool shows a list of prior transaction details, it could not show the credit card number used for each transaction, but it could show the first 6 and the last 4 digits.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#247

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #81

rrdharan wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of doubt it. It's not like you enter into a contract with Uber just by downloading the app, and I don't think you have a legal right to use their services. Maybe you could drum up some sort of civil rights violation? But I don't think law enforcement is actually a protected class...

IANAL or even very knowledgeable so I could be way off here. Looking up the legal definition of fraud, I found that it requires: (1) a false statement of a material fact, (2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as…

1 isn't obvious to me. What makes the location of cars 'material'?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#248

Post by pharrington » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

gankedfrank wrote: post #223

us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I do as well. Uber is a fantastic company and really exemplary in terms of innovation. This is no exception.

Are you saying innovation denotes positive social change?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#249

Post by geofft » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

snappyTertle wrote: post #152

geofft wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. This is a super naive view of how markets work (and I'm very surprised to see this out of someone who calls the state a "corporation"). I don't really mind Uber as a service; they get me where I need to go. I hate Uber as a market participant. They change the economics of taxis, of existing black car services, of public transit, etc., i.e., of every single thing I'm u…

You want it out, but it's pretty clear other people don't. Why are you able to force your personal views on other? You are free to choose not to use Uber, others are free to choose for themselves.

Because that's the primary way that governments aren't just corporations: if the rulers (the majority, in a democracy) believe that Uber needs to go out, or at least needs to stop participating in the market in certain ways, the government can enforce that via its monopoly on violence.

This has historically worked pretty well for human society; for instance, if someone gets the clever idea to participate in a market by impersonating an existing, trusted market participant, or offering counterfeit goods, or using slave labor to plant cotton, or whatever other bad idea that is short-term profitable, the government can step in and say that this isn't long-term good for society.

Whether Portland is correct to stop Uber is a legitimate matter of debate, but that Portland legitimately has the ability to choose to stop Uber is, I'd hope, uncontroversial.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#250

Post by verdverm » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:47 PM UTC

Uber leadership provides yet another reason to be happy with deleting their app. A weak apology that didn't even mention their most egregious behaviors??! Travis, you should do the right thing and step down as CEO. You will never be thought of as trustable or honorable again (if you ever were...)