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Announcing Clojure/core

clojure.blogspot.com

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Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#11

Post by avar »

rfreytag wrote: post #5

Something about a commercial website with its sense of self-interest versus welcoming-user-focus causes me a gut bad reaction. Postgres is an good example of doing this right IMHO: http://www.postgres.com the commercial aspects are underplayed and yet they have a good business. With Postgres I feel I can contribute even if I am not part of the "core." I think Clojure and the businesses around it benefit from keeping…

I think the us v.s. them aspect of this is all in your head. We all like working on our hobbies, but unless we're able to get paid for it that's all they'll ever be.

Clojure has been trying to solve this problem for a while (see http://clojure.org/funding). If they're able to make something like this work then I think that's great. It's still an open source project, it's not like they'll be rejecting patches because they come from the wrong people.

It just means that more people can do Clojure for a living, which'll improve the language itself and the platform for everyone.

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#12

Post by rfreytag »

avar wrote: post #11
rfreytag wrote: post #5

Something about a commercial website with its sense of self-interest versus welcoming-user-focus causes me a gut bad reaction. Postgres is an good example of doing this right IMHO: http://www.postgres.com the commercial aspects are underplayed and yet they have a good business. With Postgres I feel I can contribute even if I am not part of the "core." I think Clojure and the businesses around it benefit from keeping…

I think the us v.s. them aspect of this is all in your head. We all like working on our hobbies, but unless we're able to get paid for it that's all they'll ever be. Clojure has been trying to solve this problem for a while (see http://clojure.org/funding ). If they're able to make something like this work then I think that's great. It's still an open source project, it's not like they'll be rejecting patches because…

You may have missed my point. I take time to offer supported criticism because I want to see Clojure succeed. To succeed, Clojure must keep the community or there is no business in supporting the language.

Some language comparisons: Perl got where it is on the strength of its community which now supports many language-focused businesses. Community is also cited as one of the strengths of Python and Ruby which also have associated thriving businesses. Community is regularly cited as a problem with LISP (wait, wait, hold the spears - I'm a LISPer too!). PTL Scheme is the exception that seems to prove the rule - good community there.

Languages and tools do prosper and my point here is to highlight how they do so by building a community and what Clojure's "core" risk through making this distinction.

I see I may initiate a language dispute and that is not my intention. Other projects just seem the best source of supporting comparisons.

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#13

Post by zaph0d »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #4

Nice. I have been appreciating Clojure a lot more recently because my largest customer uses it (so I am using it). There is a lot to like: practical language, good decisions on how Java integration is done, nice setup for supporting contrib library, easy to use stable 1.1 or 1.2 depending on project (since with leinigen I put clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar in each project's lib directory), nice Emacs support wit…

Who is your largest customer? It would be interesting to know about companies using Clojure.

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#14

Post by swannodette »

zachbeane wrote: post #10
swannodette wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides being a Lisp, Arc does not exist anywhere near the the same territory as Clojure. Lisp introduced us to: code == data Clojure introduces us to: code == concurrent high-performance immutable data

In a hundred years, is that something that will matter?

concurrent high-performance immutable data sounds pretty much like the fabric of reality. So I would hazard a YES :) In fact it'll probably matter in a million years from now.

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#15

Post by jules »

zachbeane wrote: post #10
swannodette wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides being a Lisp, Arc does not exist anywhere near the the same territory as Clojure. Lisp introduced us to: code == data Clojure introduces us to: code == concurrent high-performance immutable data

In a hundred years, is that something that will matter?

In a hundred years, will any of the stuff in Arc matter? What exactly? The innovation in Arc is minimal, Clojure does much more in new and better ways.

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#16

Post by kleiba »

zachbeane wrote: post #10
swannodette wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides being a Lisp, Arc does not exist anywhere near the the same territory as Clojure. Lisp introduced us to: code == data Clojure introduces us to: code == concurrent high-performance immutable data

In a hundred years, is that something that will matter?

"Multi-core is here to stay", says Rich Hickey

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#17

Post by ynniv »

swannodette wrote: post #8
zachbeane wrote: post #3

I wonder if Arc is the tortoise to Clojure's hare.

Besides being a Lisp, Arc does not exist anywhere near the the same territory as Clojure. Lisp introduced us to: code == data Clojure introduces us to: code == concurrent high-performance immutable data

Yes! The functional aspects of lisp have always made it feel more parallelizable, but outside of particular lisp dialects (*Lisp), effective parallelization has been difficult. Pervasive immutable data structures and front page concurrency mechanisms make clojure decidedly parallel.

(I hope that parallel being the only way to gain additional performance should be obvious by now.)

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#18

Post by fogus »

zachbeane wrote: post #9
silkodyssey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you care to elaborate? Your assertion implies that arc is going to surpass clojure in popularity. Why do you think so? Personally I think that's unlikely to happen given the traction that clojure has been getting already. Clojure has been designed for practical use and is already being used in real world projects whereas I get the impression that arc is sort of a research project where Paul is just experimentin…

I didn't make any assertions. Clojure is wildly successful and follows a pattern of development that seems fruitful to emulate. But in the story, the tortoise does win.

I am always on the lookout for interesting stories about people using functional programming on the job. Are you currently using Arc to this end?

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#19

Post by mark_l_watson »

zaph0d wrote: post #13
mark_l_watson wrote: post #4

Nice. I have been appreciating Clojure a lot more recently because my largest customer uses it (so I am using it). There is a lot to like: practical language, good decisions on how Java integration is done, nice setup for supporting contrib library, easy to use stable 1.1 or 1.2 depending on project (since with leinigen I put clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar in each project's lib directory), nice Emacs support wit…

Who is your largest customer? It would be interesting to know about companies using Clojure.

They are in 'stealth mode.' I'll ask them what I can talk about.

Re: Announcing Clojure/core

#20

Post by zachbeane »

fogus wrote: post #18
zachbeane wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't make any assertions. Clojure is wildly successful and follows a pattern of development that seems fruitful to emulate. But in the story, the tortoise does win.

I am always on the lookout for interesting stories about people using functional programming on the job. Are you currently using Arc to this end?

I don't use Arc at all.
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