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Sweden brings back military conscription

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#171

Post by igivanov »

mmmBacon wrote: post #33
thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

War is not something that can be controlled once it breaks out. Non-aligned militaries that come into close proximity is something that's very dangerous. At the very least an incident between militaries can cause a diplomatic crisis or at worst start a minor war. The very presence of military forces in the Baltic is a deterrent for that reason. Also Russia has continually violated Swedens air space. Russian pilots ha…

>Russian submarines have been spotted in Swedish waters.

this bullshit has acquired a life of its own no matter how often it's debunked. Please educate yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents

there is not a single confirmed case. (But there is one from the distant USSR times.)

Overall this hysteria is an excellent example of Western/Swedish propaganda.

I suspect that "Russia has continually violated Swedens air space" is much of the same.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#172

Post by colechristensen »

BurningFrog wrote: post #168
icebraining wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeap, if they're going to shoot other people, might as well make it official. Yes, I'm being facetious, but if we're going to have reeducation camps paid by public money, I'd rather have them learn more useful things than how to handle military equipment.

There is a ton of real world experience that "troubled" kids often become reliable citizens by a few years in the military. What they learn is working in a team, taking responsibility and being accountable.

Not to mention that actual combat skill is a small minority of what is needed and trained in the military. Sure, the cook has a gun and knows how to use it, but otherwise he's more or less a cook only. Ditto for very very many positions both high and low skilled.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#173

Post by geoka9 »

zilean wrote: post #49
mmmBacon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is not something that can be controlled once it breaks out. Non-aligned militaries that come into close proximity is something that's very dangerous. At the very least an incident between militaries can cause a diplomatic crisis or at worst start a minor war. The very presence of military forces in the Baltic is a deterrent for that reason. Also Russia has continually violated Swedens air space. Russian pilots ha…

https://www.rt.com/news/346287-sweden-russian-submarine-hunt... Russia has nothing to gain in baltic that it doesnt have with Kaliningrad. Same goes for Ukraine w/o Crimea.

Russia has nothing to gain by fighting any war nowadays. It fights because its leaders want to stay in power and it seems to work for now.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#174

Post by zzzcpan »

Kenji wrote: post #128
yjgyhj wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt that way when I was called in for evaluation as a teenager. I was a peace loving left-wing Swedish boy. That was maybe 8 years ago or so, I remember conscription being scrapped a year or two later. I regret not making an effort to do it. I chose to underperform in my test because I believed all is better than war. But as an adult I've changed, and realised I wouldn't quite mind dying for things like my languag…

>I felt that way when I was called in for evaluation as a teenager. I am no pacifist. I definitely subscribe to the non-aggression principle, but a defensive war is always justified. I'd die for certain things I believe in, too. I just wanna decide that for myself and serve when I want. How dare the state make this decision for me.

It's all propaganda. Every war is based on this non-aggression principle and is a defensive war, offensive wars are long gone. If those in power want to fight a war on another country's soil, they simply invent a group of people they "need" to protect there, demonize the enemy and go to war there. Like Russia was "defending" russians in Georgia.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#175

Post by anticodon »

BurningFrog wrote: post #29
zmb_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>'if this isn't for you then you can go home' I did compulsory military service, including in a leadership role. "If you don't do what you're told, you don't get go home next weekend." Worked very well for conscripts, who usually get to go home for many weekends (unless on exercises). There are also many smaller privileges you can take a way for smaller infractions. Although when you have a defensive military that do…

A credible deterrent in 2020 is not 200k dudes with guns. It's air and naval power. Expensive and complex hi tech death machines. Of course, a 10m country will never have a really credible defense against nuclear super power Russia by itself.

Why would Russia want to invade Sweden? This is political fearmongering and bullshit.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#176

Post by 67726e »

komali2 wrote: post #72
67726e wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, it worked for my uncle. The judge gave him the option to join the Marines or go to prison. He chose the former and he ended up becoming a productive member of society.

I've never heard of this type of judgement. Was this in the USA? What was your uncle's crime?

This was in the US, Pittsburgh, PA to be specific. However this was during the Vietnam war. Googling around, this sort of arrangement would make one ineligible from enlisting nowadays. There's an article referring to at least one case in which someone was denied enlistment[0] because of just such a case. Further research indicates that this is asked of recruits, meaning one could hypothetically perjure himself and maybe not get caught. I couldn't find any other references to this happening today, but there were loads of waivers issued back in the days of "the surge", so it wouldn't surprise me if some folks slipped through the cracks and got a "jail or enlist" talk from a small town sheriff or magistrate.

[0] - https://www.stripes.com/news/judge-said-army-or-jail-but-mil...

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#177

Post by zilean »

qaq wrote: post #161
zilean wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont watch news much. But that doesn't stops me from getting Ukraine from all sorts of angles for a long time (you have to justify Crimea). I dont get much about NK from anyone but some ultra-right aligned personalities (but i am also getting stuff about Alaska from them, so there is that).

There is no independent ultra-right it's just another face of the same ruling group. The things they declare are coordinated by Kremlin. The "crazy" talk about Ukraine that started even prior to 2004 by "ultra-right" leaders was just 1st phase of prep. I would strongly caution against dismissing their msg. because they are voiced by ultra-right.

> There is no independent ultra-right it's just another face of the same ruling group.

Cant agree. Also this is a slippery slope that could apply to western countries as well and we dont want to go there.

> The "crazy" talk about Ukraine that started even prior to 2004 by "ultra-right" leaders was just 1st phase of prep.

Again, Ukraine problematic is objective. Alaska and NK is not. Not from todays Russia perspective, not from population perspective, not even from historical perspective. You didnt need ultra-right to talk about Ukraine and many legitimate politicians spoke about that for a long time. If anything moving towards Iran and eating up Caucasus nations is making much more sense than messing with NK, Baltics, Sweden or whoever else is trying to justify their actions using Russia as a threat.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#178

Post by anticodon »

thedevil wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why Sweden would be concerned. I read Russian news/propaganda occasionally. Over the last few years, Russian news/propaganda prepared Russian minds for interfering in Ukraine. And the propaganda includes arguments to justify a military buildup. And it seems to be preparing Russian minds for a possible invasion of Baltic states one day. But I don't think I've even seen Sweden mentioned in Russian news/pro…

As Russian I don't agree. I don't watch TV and read news (other than HN and a couple of other sites where I try to avoid politics as much as I can), but why the hell do we need these Baltic states? What do they have that Russia needs? Territory, natural resources? Nothing.

I don't know the real motivation for annexing Crimea, but making a conclusion: first they take Crimea, then they're going to take Sweden and Baltic states - is nonsense.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#179

Post by phicoh »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #145
zmb_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 200k dudes with guns Conscript military doesn't mean that you just teach everyone to dig a hole and sit in it with a rifle. You train conscripts into every role you need in a 200k strong modern military. Including operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers of all kinds, and yes, the guys that dig holes and sit in them with rifles…

You literally cannot use conscripts for anything of "operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers." First of all, most of them take at least a year to get up to speed, if not more, and they have to maintain their competence. You cannot just release a conscript after his year long stint, and call him up ten years later - the ten year…

This anecdotal, but it was suggested that after the Dutch government suspended conscription, the military lost easy access to lots of highly educated people. There is quite a large group of people with a university degree who can very quickly pick up the theory behind complex systems. The same group group will not sign up voluntarily.

Re: Sweden brings back military conscription

#180

Post by sebcat »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #153
pilsetnieks wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally cannot use conscripts for anything of "operators and maintainers of the hi-tech death machines, sigint operatives, radar operators, tank crews, missile forces, officers." First of all, most of them take at least a year to get up to speed, if not more, and they have to maintain their competence. You cannot just release a conscript after his year long stint, and call him up ten years later - the ten year…

Well, both the Swedish and Norwegian Armies have a long tradition for using conscripts to do a lot more than what you think. E.g. on the main battle tank (Leopard 2), everyone except the tank commander (i.e. driver, gunner, loader) is a conscript. My brother-in-law was in the forward sigint ops division as a conscript. 90% of ship crews are conscripts, as are most of the air force support personnell. To make sure the…

That used to be the case in Sweden, but if I understand things correctly, the GSS system (professional soldiers and NCOs, the system that replaced conscription in 2010) will still be in place, and that tank crews may be GSS/K and not conscripts.

A rumor I heard was that the now voluntary GMU will be replaced with conscription.

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