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What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

newhumanist.org.uk

111–120 of 183 posts

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#111

It's not really enough to read and upvote, but I'm at a loss as to what I can personally can do about this. So in the spirit of the askhn "how would you turn around Twitter" - let's apply the same thinking to this: "how would you fix the oceans "? There must be some practical steps that one or many of the hn audience can execute?

I see people mentioning things like "become a vegetarian" or "bike to work", but those are easy and neglible-impact things. Sure, they'd have a huge effect if half of the population suddenly adopted them, but that's not going to happen - so just going vegetarian yourself and calling it a day is not really helping anything. What I'd love to see is a list of high-impact work one could use their skills to help with. May…

Agreed. This is not a problem that is tractable on an individual level. Sure, if everyone became a vegetarian and cycled to work and only partook of goods and services that were part of a circular economy, then the world would be a place. But that's not going to happen, because in many places, food choices (and food culture) is terrible; cities are designed in cycling/pedestrian-hostile ways; the circular economy just can't supply all the goods and services you need to keep your family in good shape.

So that's not gonna work. I mean, do it if it makes you feel good -- personally I don't own a car, am a vegetarian, etc. -- but don't kid yourself that that's how the world gets saved. It isn't. The problems need to be fixed on an institutional/structural level.

Here's how I'm personally doing that:

- Worked on a new urban transport technology (http://www.ultraglobalprt.com/) that is significantly more attractive than the car in many respects, is all-electric, requires 70% less net energy, and uses 95% less land.

- Although I failed at getting the above technology implemented at urban scales, I discovered a more fundamental problem that needed to be cracked: cities have difficulty innovating (and integrating) because all the various planning/engineering/policymaking disciplines are heavily siloed. So I started a software company (https://www.podaris.com/) that has now created a collaboration platform for transport planners, urban planners, architects, policymakers etc. If it helps us to create better cities, it may actually help to save the world.

If I could clone myself and work on other things, they would be:

- Bio-engineered vat-grown meat and yeast-derived dairy. I have no intrinsic problem with small-scale, local, traditional meat production, but the mainstream industry, based on feedlots and Brazilian Soya, needs to die.

- Sea farming: seaweed and oysters. Sustainable, and also highly freaking yummy.

- Vertical / urban farming tech. (Still not 100% sold on this, but where it makes sense, it should be done!)

- Create software tools for tracking, comprehending, and shaping designs and resource flows in the circular economy.

- Get involved in public policy: reform campaign-finance laws that allow entrenched industries to capture and distort the regulatory landscape; implement a carbon tax; abolish farm subsidies.

- Electric aviation. Somewhere in the next 10 years this will be crossing into the realm of viability. Would be exciting to get in on the ground floor.

- Electric storage systems. A decarbonised electrical systm needs better way of buffering electricity, whether that's in batteries, potential energy, air pressure, or whatever. Much innovation needed here.

- Electric shipping. Hey, why isn't this a thing already?

- Sustainable building materials. Concrete is one of my favourite materials, but it has one hell of a carbon footprint. Figure out better ways to make concrete, or innovate with other materials entirely. (I suspect that bamboo still has a hell of a lot of untapped potential, and could even be a viable carbon sink.)

- Better automation in the production and installation of solar and wind. The more that robots do the work, the faster it can get done. (Elon Musk is very much on this track, with his whole "factories that make factories" thing). You should be extremely pessimistic every time you hear people extol how many jobs will be created by the Green Economy: the flipside of the jobs-creation scenario is that it'll take a very long time and an unsustainable fuckload of money. Want it to be done quickly and economically sustainably? It'll have to be done with robots. Go build 'em.

- Do research on / campaign for a Universal Basic Income. Wait, what does this have to do with ocean acidification? Simple: 1. We're not getting out of this mess without software/robots eating the world. The decarbonisation process is going to destroy millions of jobs in old, polluting industry -- and won't replace them with an equivalent number of new jobs. Heck, even my urban planning collaboration software is going to eventually displace a lot of middlemen. So the entire wage-labor economy, with one's salary being the cornerstone of the social contract, is going the way of the Dodo. 2. When people are economically insecure, they have a difficult giving a damn about any of the above. They just want their coal-mining jobs (or whatever) back. And thus we end up with the politics of our age. 3. This problem is worse in emerging economies, BTW. 4. So until more people can achieve economic security, all of the above will be a very uphill battle. But the world has more than enough money to solve this problem, so let's bloody well solve it so we can get on to the harder problems.

There's your list, for a start. It'll be tough work, but somebody's gotta do it. Might as well be you.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#112

It's not really enough to read and upvote, but I'm at a loss as to what I can personally can do about this. So in the spirit of the askhn "how would you turn around Twitter" - let's apply the same thinking to this: "how would you fix the oceans "? There must be some practical steps that one or many of the hn audience can execute?

Population control is the only long term option. It has naturally happened in Japan and most of the West. China is now under control as well. We now need to limit the artificial growth of Africa by stopping food programs and allowing balance to be reached.

> We now need to limit the artificial growth of Africa by stopping food programs and allowing balance to be reached.

That's not how it works. Check out Hans Rosling: https://www.gapminder.org/videos/will-saving-poor-children-l...

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I applaud your meat buying preferences, it would be an environmental disaster for every meat eater on earth to attempt to do the same. I might not get the point, but why would it be a bigger environmental disaster?

Because we'd need significantly more land/pasture to feed livestock that way.

in a 1:1 substitution case. but locally, sustainably (yeah, maybe not the right word ... organically?) produced meat is more expensive, which should lead people to eat less meat, but if they eat meat to consume meat produced locally with a smaller environmental footprint (if that's the case, I'm not an expert in that field).

maybe that's just wishful thinking though.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The compounded impact from multiple people is not negligible.

Of course it isn't. But the marginal impact is. That's the difference between "go vegetarian" vs. "convince millions to go vegetarian". I'm asking for things a skilled individual can do that would have larger marginal impact that changing one's own dietary habits.

Sadly, this attitude has been the problem for too long now, it might be our undoing.

The common individual waits for some authoritative direction, without taking any immediate action or responsibility of their own.

The individual somehow believes they won't have an impact, failing to realize they're part of the same system as everyone else and, it's the sum of all our behaviour that has got us to this crisis point.

If the old way isn't working, why not try something new?

Don't forget the power of influence. It's monkey see, money do with us humans!

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The compounded impact from multiple people is not negligible.

Of course it isn't. But the marginal impact is. That's the difference between "go vegetarian" vs. "convince millions to go vegetarian". I'm asking for things a skilled individual can do that would have larger marginal impact that changing one's own dietary habits.

As the problem is really a compound of millions of people and not any one indivdiual, the answer is then really nothing - bar more unrealistic options such as becoming a dictator and banning fossil fuel, or become a genie and invent an engine running on water.

The more realistic approach is to change ones own behavior where possible - get an electric car, demand your electricity company switch to clean tech, switch to getting electric from non-fossil fueled power, fly less miles, use a bike, and so on - and try to convince others to do so too. If noone does anything, it's pretty certain nothing will change either.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#116
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people mentioning things like "become a vegetarian" or "bike to work", but those are easy and neglible-impact things. Sure, they'd have a huge effect if half of the population suddenly adopted them, but that's not going to happen - so just going vegetarian yourself and calling it a day is not really helping anything. What I'd love to see is a list of high-impact work one could use their skills to help with. May…

I would say those are hard and seemingly-neglible-impact things, and that's why the general populace don't do those sorts of things. I see a parallel with being afraid of flying but not driving; people are not very rational or good at assessing impact. There's no reason not to change our habits, further, there's a positive feedback loop for vegetarianism: more consumer, more products, more consumers. If you want to a…

I would say those are hard and seemingly-neglible-impact things, and that's why the general populace don't do those sorts of things.

God help us...

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#117
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data centers use a lot of power. Make data centers more efficient, for example by improving GCC or the Linux Kernel, and you can save a chunk. Don't write your billion-user apps in Python, use a more efficient language like Rust or Go. Don't make 10MB webpages where 100kb would also suffice. But I think useful change can only be made using political means. Write your representatives and tell them how you feel. Vote f…

Data centers are about 1-2% of emissions. Animal agriculture is comparable to all transit, while heating/cooling/electricity is heavily at the top. If I were profiling I'd optimize the highest bottleneck first.

I don't think many people on HN have the skills to make other people stop eating animals, so I focused on computers.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a vegetarian myself, although for another reason: I don't want living beings to be tortured and killed for my food. But I find is that vegetarian propaganda is many times so disgusting and based on lies that it's probably going to turn people away from vegeterian food. Some vegeterians and vegans are obnoxious bigots and their efforts are generating opposite result - people start hating vegeterians and vegeterian…

Although, male calves are killed in milk production. Dairy cows cannot produce thousands of liters of milk without living a short life. Chickens that produce eggs were bred into monsters that can't live long. I do not think any hate is rational and believe that any kind of vegan propaganda is beneficial to the cause. Fossil fuels are nothing compared to nitrite waste.

I've noticed that when you blame people for something (eating meat, for example), they're not going to listen, it's causing opposite reaction - to defend and continue doing the same thing.

So, maybe it's possible to persuade people to stop eating meat, but it requires much wisdom and patience... I don't really try. When my friends ask me, I answer politely, but it's very hard, because when I say: "I'm do not want to kill living beings for food because they're suffering" it's already sounds like I'm blaming them. :(

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#119
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data centers use a lot of power. Make data centers more efficient, for example by improving GCC or the Linux Kernel, and you can save a chunk. Don't write your billion-user apps in Python, use a more efficient language like Rust or Go. Don't make 10MB webpages where 100kb would also suffice. But I think useful change can only be made using political means. Write your representatives and tell them how you feel. Vote f…

> But I think useful change can only be made using political means. Write your representatives and tell them how you feel. Vote for politicians who want to change things. I like technical solutions because they're undemocratic - they can step around conflicting short-term agendas and force change by exploiting market / people's preferences. In the day and age when climate is at best a very distant concern for most pe…

Improving local infrastructure to improve walkability and prioritize cycling over cars helps, but in the near term we need to stop producing GHGs completely. So unless you have a found a cheap way to get fusion power to market in the next fifteen years or so, or have grid scale power storage up your sleeves, a large scale, expensive shift of our whole economy seems necessary. I don't see how you can do that without politics.

Re: What fossil fuels are doing to our oceans

#120

It's not really enough to read and upvote, but I'm at a loss as to what I can personally can do about this. So in the spirit of the askhn "how would you turn around Twitter" - let's apply the same thinking to this: "how would you fix the oceans "? There must be some practical steps that one or many of the hn audience can execute?

Same for a lot of other issues:

- society

- forest

- health

- education

- thermal insulation

- homeless

The web make you feel connected .. but to all the wrong projects. I'm going to redirect the efforts toward "physical" change from now on.

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