Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids • Hacker News Board

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#141

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

Joakal wrote: post #93

jessep wrote: post #28

I get kidney stones pretty often (6 times in the last 8 years). I vomit from the pain, convulse on the floor, lose all sense of self as I just struggle to survive the sensation. It is intense. Usually I have to go to the emergency room for IV opioids. Then they give you some to take home after you pass the peak of the pain. Last time it happened to me, I went home at around 6pm after going into the hospital that morn…

Have you tried riding rollercoasters with kidney stones? Apparently some people did a study and found that it can be effective at passing kidney stones. Was in news last year https://www.ems1.com/medical-clinical/articles/129734048-Stu... They also said it's good as preventative measure (dislodging before they get too big).

Someday in a glorious future doctors will prescribe rollercoaster rides.

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#142

Post by vidarh » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #123

developer2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crohn's Disease is one of those things where, if you do not suffer from it personally, you have absolutely no business telling someone who does what they may or may not do to treat it - or rather its symptoms. I have a friend with Crohn's, and based on his reserved description (not far past PG-13) as to what he goes through on a daily basis, I would not DARE tell him that he cannot use marijuana, opioids, or anything…

> Nobody - absolutely nobody - has the right tell him differently. > People are ignorant and frankly downright... disgusting/pathetic/opinionated Those are some very strong claims. You can be sympathetic without being hyperbolic, or assuming that the reason that other don't share your views is that they're bad people who don't share your perfect reasoning.

They are strong claims because current drug laws cost people their lives in large numbers. If there wasn't plenty of evidence to support that, I could accept that it might be excusable, but the evidence is there to the point that I have taken to at the very least consider politicians that oppose drug reform (who we should be able to expect to inform themselves) to be morally no better than murderers.

In fact, for the most part they are worse - most murderers do not cause further harm after a single death (it is exceedingly rare for people to commit more than one murder); most politicians who oppose drug law reforms continue to cause harm.

Sometimes we reach inflection points where certain views become so outdated by the availability of evidence that they become repugnant. Consider slavery (yes, I am making that comparison).

Our eras drug laws will come to be remembered as the same kind of barbaric oppression of - and violence against - weaker members of society.

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#143

Post by agumonkey » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #139

agumonkey wrote: post #71

I skimmed the paper, I can't see what mode of intake they suggest. I suppose users were smoking joints. Wouldn't vaporised THC inhalation be even more effective and less damaging for health ?

The negative health effects of smoking cannabis are relatively low. See the recent NSF report; there is definitely a problem with chronic respiratory issues for extremely heavy smokers, but no risk for cancer except for a type of prostate cancer which is easily treated.

I planned to use it for therapeutic purposes or soft health improver. So no heavy usage and possibly zero smoke/combustion.

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#144

Post by vidarh » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

smohare wrote: post #130

developer2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crohn's Disease is one of those things where, if you do not suffer from it personally, you have absolutely no business telling someone who does what they may or may not do to treat it - or rather its symptoms. I have a friend with Crohn's, and based on his reserved description (not far past PG-13) as to what he goes through on a daily basis, I would not DARE tell him that he cannot use marijuana, opioids, or anything…

While I understand your sentiment, unmitigated access to treatment modalities is generally not a good thing. People, often children with no real informed consent, die every year because they forsake science-based medicine for quackery. The efficacy and safety of a treatment are not something we want left to personal anecdote.

The efficacy and safety of the treatments are not the issue. The issue is when government uses the threat of violence to prevent people from accessing substances that cause no harm to others.

I agree that people should not use it as treatment without seeking help, but there are far more dangerous substances you can buy over the counter.

E.g. acetaminophen/paracetamol causes a range of deaths via liver failure every year, yet not only do we allow it to be sold, in many countries it is now allowed to be sold mixed with codeine - a highly addictive opoid, creating an incentive for addicts to push the limits of their intake of highly toxic compound.

And yet people worry about cannabis - a substance where the LD50 is so high we don't know what it is, or if there is one (short of choking on it...)

Attack quackery, sure. But if you are to go after quackery, then go after current drug laws too, because they are not based on a concern over science, efficacy or safety.

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#145

Post by Eric_WVGG » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #84

sergers wrote: post #14

My mom has benefited from cannabis to help treat chrohns. While nothing has cured, it's been the most effective with no known side effects. Plus it's cheaper than the meds she has been buying for years (spending out of pocket upwards $10k a year with $500 a pill just for flare ups even with medicare in Canada). She has been in hell for 30 years. They wanted to remove her small intestine ~20 years ago and she didn't w…

What is your mom taking exactly? I have Crohn's disease but unfortunately my attempts to treat with MMJ haven't been quite as successful. Since the research is so lacking, you sort of have to come up with a custom protocol. I'd be interested to know what hers is.

I have a friend who uses it to treat Chron's. Before, he was somewhat straight-edge, as I still am.

He learned that cannabis comes under two general categories; one mostly hits "the head", e.g. Makes you really high and behave silly. Another hits the body.

If I remember correctly, the former didn't really help with pain or comfort much; the latter is less popular with recreational users for obvious reasons. At any rate, there's a huge catalog of varieties out there; I would suggest going to forums frequented by other Chrons sufferers or cancer patients and get some specific recommendations.

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#146

Post by wu-ikkyu » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:56 PM UTC

smohare wrote: post #130

developer2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crohn's Disease is one of those things where, if you do not suffer from it personally, you have absolutely no business telling someone who does what they may or may not do to treat it - or rather its symptoms. I have a friend with Crohn's, and based on his reserved description (not far past PG-13) as to what he goes through on a daily basis, I would not DARE tell him that he cannot use marijuana, opioids, or anything…

While I understand your sentiment, unmitigated access to treatment modalities is generally not a good thing. People, often children with no real informed consent, die every year because they forsake science-based medicine for quackery. The efficacy and safety of a treatment are not something we want left to personal anecdote.

Is the government the ultimate arbiter of science? Is it not possible to have access to medicines and have relevant scientific information without being subjugated by bureaucratic proxies for big pharma[1]?

>People, often children with no real informed consent, die every year because they forsake science-based medicine for quackery.

People, often children, die every year due to "science-based medicine" as well. Overdose deaths involving prescription opioids have quadrupled since 1999, and so have sales of these prescription drugs[2].

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

[2]https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/overdose.html

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#147

Post by dekhn » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:56 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #143

dekhn wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative health effects of smoking cannabis are relatively low. See the recent NSF report; there is definitely a problem with chronic respiratory issues for extremely heavy smokers, but no risk for cancer except for a type of prostate cancer which is easily treated.

I planned to use it for therapeutic purposes or soft health improver. So no heavy usage and possibly zero smoke/combustion.

That's fine. Depending on what's available, I suggest getting a vape pen and using concentrates. With the heat dialed low, it's just steam.

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#148

Post by Broken_Hippo » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 2:56 PM UTC

awestroke wrote: post #129

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people say this, and I disagree. And just for clarity, I'm definitely pro-drug legalisation - even of drugs I never want to be in the same room with. I think drug companies are precisely the sort of place to produce medical-grade LSD (and other therapudic "recreational" drugs) that has predictable dosages. Same goes for cannabinoids in pill form - especially the sorts meant for folks that would rather skip the…

LSD cannot be patented, so Big Pharma cannot make money on it - they'd have to compete on price, which would lead to really slim margins. If LSD is kept illegal, they can sell patented "alternatives" at huge margins.

They can patent a process that gives them very reliable dosages, though. And like the other reply said, the Generic companies aren't relying on the patent protection anyway.

They might find different sorts of chemical structures that are theraputically superior than LSD itself as well, but this stuff wont' happen without minimally having LSD medically legal.

They can still sell the patented "alternatives" : LSD isn't a cure-all and isn't necessarily ideal for everyone. Besides, these patents will eventually run out, so they'll have to think up new ideas nevertheless.

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#149

Post by epmaybe » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 3:09 PM UTC

jessep wrote: post #28

I get kidney stones pretty often (6 times in the last 8 years). I vomit from the pain, convulse on the floor, lose all sense of self as I just struggle to survive the sensation. It is intense. Usually I have to go to the emergency room for IV opioids. Then they give you some to take home after you pass the peak of the pain. Last time it happened to me, I went home at around 6pm after going into the hospital that morn…

why do you get so many stones, if you don't mind me asking?

Re: Given Choice, Patients Will Choose Cannabis Over Prescribed Opioids

#150

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 01, 2017, 3:09 PM UTC

ryanlol wrote: post #113

ehnto wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of side effects should be a key part of the decision. Effectiveness of pain relief is in my perhaps inempathetic opinion less important. People can handle some pain, and that is fine. 100% pain relief through opiates vs 50% pain relief through less detrimental means is probably worth it.

But surely most opioid pain treatments will have less side effects than pot? Although, I suppose the side effects of pot are considered desirable by many.

No, most opioid pain treatments have far more severe side effects than pot, and they tend to have a high risk of serious addiction that limits their dosage.