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I am an Uber survivor

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Re: I am an Uber survivor

#531

Post by xapata »

mememachine wrote: post #511
xapata wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean by grandstanding. You asked how harassment can be objectively observed. I explained that it's defined in the law. Did I misunderstand what you meant? BTW, I try to be polite, but ain't so easy when you're accusing and insulting me.

Im not sure I believe that youre really trying to be polite here at all. Youre playing a game kids play. Maybe you dont realize that.

How many replies does the HN forum allow? Can you give me another?

Edit: Sorry, that was rude. But I couldn't resist.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#532

Post by jakelazaroff »

mememachine wrote: post #509
josephlord wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with your comment is the entitlement you claim to define acceptable behaviour of those being abused "what I demand from anyone who wants to call themselves a victim". Also people don't want to call themselves victims, they are victims who may feel able to make that known. Letting a bully know that they are having an effect on you is far from risk free. You also seem to believe that people have no responsib…

>You also seem to believe that people have no responsibility for making people around them comfortable unless they are explicitly told it is making them uncomfortable. Everyone has a responsibility not to be ass. I do not believe this. >My problem with your comment is the entitlement you claim to define acceptable behaviour of those being abused "what I demand from anyone who wants to call themselves a victim". Also…

>>You also seem to believe that people have no responsibility for making people around them comfortable unless they are explicitly told it is making them uncomfortable. Everyone has a responsibility not to be ass.

>I do not believe this.

Let's take this further. If your coworker pulled you aside and punched you every day when you came into work, would you say they were justified as long as you didn't tell them you didn't want that to happen?

If this person were your boss and you were afraid you'd be ostracized or fired if you spoke up, are you not a victim?

At what point can we agree that behavior is worthy of condemnation without needing to explicitly be told that it's not okay?

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#533

Post by iamcasen »

primitivesuave wrote: post #34

It's unfortunate that the Silicon Valley work culture is being tarnished by companies like Uber. There are many companies that respect women and have HR departments that actually fulfill the purpose of being helpful Resources to Humans. I hope the anti-Uber sentiment grows so other companies can learn from this example. I'm glad the author is sharing her story.

I've experienced this at just about every single non-startup that I've worked for.

Basically, once the company is big enough that you don't know everyone who works there, the evil actors and back stabbers emerge. Especially when a company is growing rapidly, you go from being a human in the eyes of others, to a performance report -- some numbers on paper.

My new strategy? Leave any company that gets bigger than 300 people or so. It's worked so far!

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#534

Post by kristofferR »

mememachine wrote: post #394
kristofferR wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense if you regard humans as easily manipulatable/malleable emotional beings instead of rational beings. Just a tiny fraction of people are able to look at their "output" in a way that isn't being almost completely shaped by their "input". If all their inputs says that their behavior is okay, they'll regard it as okay.

Im not sure how you got to this from my comment, but ok.

Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic about it making sense. Due to that I explained why it makes sense for someone to belive something that external objective viewers would consider irrational.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#535

Post by rl3 »

rodgerd wrote: post #352
Arizhel wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this being modded down? It's the truth. Big companies almost always come out on top in trials because they can afford the best lawyers, and they can afford to game the system to bankrupt their opponents by filing never-ending motions to delay and other tactics which increase the legal costs to the opponent. You're almost never going to get a positive result if you're a rank-and-file employee; your best course…

It's not just the best lawyers. Uber have already started contacting anyone who knows Susan Fowler, digging for dirt on her.

>Uber have already started contacting anyone who knows Susan Fowler, digging for dirt on her.

What a fantastic opportunity to send those assholes on a wild goose chase. Even better if they can somehow feed Uber bullshit that they later end up hanging themselves with.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#536

Post by munin »

komali2 wrote: post #524
slurple wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way for men to counter this in a toxic environment is to call it out when they see it. This sends a message that being outwardly dehumanizing and dismissive is not okay, and is not the accepted norm.

I'm quite shocked that nobody stepped in when Mike2 called her a "whiny little bitch" in a meeting. She said the other men "were shocked" spare a couple that giggled. What the fuck kind of person stands around and does nothing when witnessing that kind of abuse in a professional environment?

When you put a lot of your self-worth in your job and you know that the person you're about to call out can have you fired on the spot? So probably almost everyone. It's really hard to call out the boss, especially when you know that no one all the way up to the CEO has your back.

Not saying it's still not the right thing to do, just, you should put yourselves in their shoes. Probably that entire room could have told the guy in unison "that wasn't cool" and they would have all been instantly fired, so, not sure what that's gonna do for anyone...

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#537

Post by sidlls »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #355
Arizhel wrote: post #290

>Besides, men outnumber women in tech by a very large margin. It's on our shoulders to help women fight back. Strength in numbers is a thing, and having men who speak up on their own, and who support and reinforce women who come forward can only a be a good thing. Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Tech is no longer the…

Yes, but the problem is that most men in tech these days are "brogrammers" who approve of this behavior and engage in it themselves. Citation needed. I haven't yet, in a decade in the tech industry, worked with anybody who would act in this way, to the best of my knowledge. That said, I work in London and not SV, so I can't say if the culture is different. I know for a fact that it wouldn't be tolerated for a second…

I've worked for more than 10 years in this industry, half out and half in SV (roughly), similarly regarding established vs startups. There is a noticeable difference on both axes.

Generally my (purely anecdotal, obviously) experience is that places in the Valley and startups tend to attract more "brogrammer" types than places outside the valley or that are established companies.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#538

Post by cauterized »

joezydeco wrote: post #28

"In essence, the HR department blackmailed me that if I make noise, I’d be fired. I was distraught by the HR department’s response especially considering that most of the HR folks I dealt with were women." Say it over and over, say it loud, and say it to every single person entering the US workforce from day one: H/R ACTS AND WILL ALWAYS ACT IN THE COMPANY'S BEST INTERESTS. NOT YOURS. Amy's situation was grave, and k…

Yes, HR acts in the company's best interests, not yours. However, if you ever want to be able to pursue legal claims against a company for actions such as permitting harassment, or firing you in retribution for it, you need to be able to document that you reported the problem to the appropriate people (i.e. HR).

Going to HR is the right move for something like this. In any sane company, HR will take such a claim seriously because the potential legal downside if they don't is an unacceptable risk. In an insane company - aside from the fact that you can't measure the insanity level until you have in fact made such reports to HR and seen them dismissed - you still need to be able to show that you brought the problem to HR's attention and they did nothing about it.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#539

Post by danso »

brown9-2 wrote: post #328
selectodude wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Great, retain a Chicago politician so you know you'll get the answer you're paying for." Normally I don't care, but because I'm from Chicago and am officially very touchy about all the abuse the city catches, I'd like to correct the record as Eric Holder is from New York.

and has never run for elected office.

But Attorney General is a political position, e.g. appointed by and serves at the pleasure of the U.S. President.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#540

Post by acdha »

grandalf wrote: post #360

I think the bottom line is that some founders believe that you have to tolerate abusive personalities in order to hire the best. I had a person on my team once who I did not hire but who had a reputation for being one of the smartest and most capable engineers. As his new manager, I expected that I'd soon promote him. But then I saw that he treated others on the team very poorly and often said highly inappropriate se…

> I don't think bullies can thrive in a healthy workplace culture

This part is really key: a single incident, sure, perhaps that's a bad hire but if it's not directly and completely rejected by senior management they're sending a message that anything goes as long as you get results / have the right friends. That doesn't even mean explicitly condoning something – merely allowing it to continue is enough.

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