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I am an Uber survivor

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Re: I am an Uber survivor

#361

Two comments Future Amy's should always be prepared to start recording at a moment's notice. Think Roger Ailes If you ignore a verbal wrong said to someone else and you don't say something, then it is like you said it yourself.

> Future Amy's should always be prepared to start recording at a moment's notice

It's not always that simple. California is a 2-party consent state. INAL, but my understanding is that a private conversation (in a non-public place) means all parties have an expectation of privacy, which makes recording that conversation without the consent of all parties a felony.

Presumably, getting consent from your harasser to record their words and actions would be troublesome...

Again, not a lawyer, but that's what I've come to understand as a CA resident.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#362

I'm not in the business of defending Uber - quite the contrary - but reading through the comments it seems that most people are assuming that this post by an anonymous person is 100% true. These types of posts are worrying to me. Why could this post not have been crafted by someone at Lyft? Or one of Uber's many other detractors? Given the PR nightmare that Uber is in why not pile on while the public seems primed for…

Fowler's post established that this was happening to many women in the company. If we accept that Fowler is a credible witness, which I think is a fair assessment, we already know that this is a systemic problem. It's safe to assume then that if more women come forward, they are more likely to be telling the truth than not.

Additionally, it's in Lyft's or other detractors best interests not to fake additional claims. This is a scandal that will grow on its own, as/if more women come forward. If Lyft et al is caught faking claims, they discredit all the claims and make themselves the bad guys instead of Uber. All Lyft has to do is sit back and watch Uber dig themselves deeper into the hole they're in.

As other posters have also touched on, there is a history of men (and women) doubting and minimizing abuse claims made by women. This is not a good mindset to take as it minimizes the women's experience in favor of a corporation or individual who is already in a more powerful position than the accuser. By minimizing one accuser, we make it harder for women as a whole to speak up against abuse, which is not acceptable.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#363
post #210

I'm really happy she felt comfortable doing this. What an incredibly brave and strong person—I can't imagine what she must be feeling. What I really want to see is the other 20 men on her team tell their bosses to cut that shit out. We cannot rely on the abused to stand up for themselves; for every one who does there are thousands who cannot. It is on every one of us to report abhorrent behaviour, even if we think so…

What specifically is the move forward here, though? I suppose hn as a community has the power to boycott applying to the company, but how else can we drive internal change from an external position? Uninstalling the app and simply choosing to use a competitor's services are another option, but sapping the entire organization of revenue seems like it would hurt drivers and developers at least as much as management, if…

OK Cupid blocked Firefox, a non-profit with less questionable business practices than most tech companies and certainly Uber, over Eich's quiet private donation which ought to be a smaller deal than systematic sexual harassment with consequences for victims instead of perpetrators (although the donation was proven while the harassment is alleged; I doubt this tips the scales of public sentiment though.) The overall reaction on HN was mostly positive. I'm sure an Uber boycott can be figured out. (Is it a good idea? I dunno, in Eich's case the question is different from this case and there's much to discuss, I'm just saying that people these days are fairly eager to boycott and fairly good at it once the proper mood sets in.)

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I've watched too much Suits and The Good Wife, but it just seems that it's all futile. They're a huge corp, if you file suit against them they'll hit back harder with bigger and badder lawyers, and you either settle out of court, or play the lotto with the court system and try your hand at a judgement with whatever lawyers you can afford. It's really sad how stacked the odds seem.

Why is this being modded down? It's the truth. Big companies almost always come out on top in trials because they can afford the best lawyers, and they can afford to game the system to bankrupt their opponents by filing never-ending motions to delay and other tactics which increase the legal costs to the opponent. You're almost never going to get a positive result if you're a rank-and-file employee; your best course…

I personally know someone who went through this (related to IP, not sexual harassment). I understand the lawsuit dragged on for about seven years. He finally got awarded about eight million dollars in damages but hasn't been able to collect a single cent of it.

When Peter Thiel says "single digit millionaires have no effective access to the legal system" [1] on the surface that sounds laughable and out-of-touch but I think there's a lot more truth to this than most people would like to admit.

[1] http://www.businessinsider.de/peter-thiel-hulk-hogan-gawker-...

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#365
post #31

Why would someone write an anonymous blog post but then declare that they are: 1) A woman in her late 20s 2) Who used to work at Uber in Engineering working on database and networking scalability 3) Went to a top private college 4) has a Masters in Information Systems 5) previous to Uber worked as a Data Analyst in a tech company in the Midwest and left when it was acquired by a Chinese firm 6) Is 5 foot 7 Caucasian…

Why would someone read this whole post, and the main takeway they get from it - enough to post a hackernews comment - is to question the poster's claims of interest in anonymity. (And - let's be honest - therefore trying to discredit her whole story one chip at a time). People like you are the problem.

Its not discrediting, its asking for proof. There are some very harsh accusations here. And if there is one thing that I learned about the Internet, that its full with trolls. Just look at some Reddit dramas on what lengths people will go to troll others.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#366

> My paycheck is 18% less than my less qualified male colleagues. I stopped reading here.

I have a hypothesis that if we could evaluate confidence levels, we'd find that both men and women who had lower confidence would be paid less than engineers with higher confidence, regardless of gender.

There's a great article published by Salon called "The Confidence Gap" which talks about this issue. Women do seem to have less confidence than men in western societies, but that's a greater social issue.

If you are a female engineer who finds out you are underpaid, go find a new job and ask for the salaries you discovered your male counterparts made. You'll most likely get it.

..and in general, you should switch jobs at the 2 year mark if you're young and fresh out of school. That way you don't get stuck as a Java/.NET/Ruby/limited-language developer, you expand you skills and you know to ask for larger increases with each job and get the current market rate. If you get stuck with the standard 2%~5% cost of living increase each year, you'll be under market value very quickly.

The wage gap is mostly a myth. When there is a gap, it has less to do with gender and more to do with the larger socialite taboo of knowing other peoples' incomes. If income/wages were transparent at every company, we'd see much less income inequality.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#367
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The pay gap is real and was nearly an aside in the article. This article is about a woman being mistreated by men in tech. This comment seems to be as well.

Mistreated by men? Did you miss the part where she writes that almost everybody in HR was a woman?

It really seems to me that if you want to find the most evil women you possibly can, you just need to go talk to women who work in HR.

There's no way I'd ever date a women who worked in HR. Once, many years ago, I met a woman on an online dating site who worked in HR for some big retailer. She made a comment (in the messaging app, we never met) disparaging the people who interviewed to work there. I commented that maybe if they paid better, they'd get better applicants. Never heard back from her after that. (No, she didn't work for CostCo; they're famous for paying well for those types of positions, and having very loyal and hard-working employees as a result.)

It seems like HR people are really the worst kind of people: they're just rank-and-file employees usually (except the HR Director), but they'll happily defend the very worse corporate treatment of employees.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#368
post #314

If its clearly abusive and discomforting, of course. But often times the problem is the "victim". I'll give you a clear example. Suppose you have a pattern of behavior around me that offends and discomforts me. If I speak out, and complain, and you continue, you are probably being abusive (although not necessarily.) On the otherhand, if I make no attempt to express my discomfort in any way (doesnt mean verbal, could…

"If I behave like an asshole, and nobody calls me an asshole, I'm actually not an asshole." Yeah, makes perfect sense.

It makes sense if you regard humans as easily manipulatable/malleable emotional beings instead of rational beings.

Just a tiny fraction of people are able to look at their "output" in a way that isn't being almost completely shaped by their "input".

If all their inputs says that their behavior is okay, they'll regard it as okay.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#369
If I were in a meeting and anyone referred to one of my coworkers as a "bitch" I would walk out of the meeting immediately and report it to HR. There's no way to know that the men in the room when "Amy" was insulted like that didn't report it to HR but it really makes me wonder.

There are so many more me in tech than women that they really do need us to be part of the fight against this shit. It is crazy to me that this kind of behavior really exists.

Re: I am an Uber survivor

#370
post #9

There's really no reason not to name Mike #2. If this is real, he already knows who you are.

So, just coming forward about these stories is impressive in itself. But both of the recent Uber stories have gone well beyond that: they're coming from people who had horrific experiences at the company and have not only worked up the courage to talk publicly about it, but have put together solid strategies for deflecting a lot of the scummy ways companies, and our society, would normally come after them.

To wit: Uber is a large company with fantastically deep pockets, a gaggle of high-powered lawyers, access to a strong media/PR machine, and a lot of glamour/adoration in the Silicon Valley/startup culture. But those strengths are being carefully neutered!

There's Susan Fowler's approach, which is first and foremost to make sure everybody knows she has documentation to back up her claims. That's a very clear message to Uber that 1) they never ever want to be in a discovery situation where she could start issuing subpoenas, since she's let them know that she knows where to get the damaging documents they don't want coming out, and 2) leaves them guessing just how much documentation she has, and so unsure of how to publicly reply: if they try to downplay the incidents she describes, or attack her record, they don't know whether she might produce proof that they're lying about it.

Then there's the approach here, which is detailed enough that the people it targets inside Uber certainly know who the author is and who she's writing about. But it does not divulge any identities with certainty to the public at large, which carries some similar "I left it at this level of detail, but maybe I could divulge a lot more if you provoked me" threat, but also makes it very difficult for Uber to attack her personally. To do so they'd have to out her and details of her employment record, and depending on the details that might put them obviously and publicly on the wrong side of a bunch of employment-related law as well as make them look like bullies.

I would barely be able to function, and maybe just wouldn't be able to, after some of the things that have been described as happening at Uber. I cannot imagine being able to not only call them out publicly, but also put together such a good strategy for doing so, and I have immense respect for Susan and "Amy" for managing it.

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