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How a French scholar was treated at US airport

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Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#231

Post by jacquesm »

crpatino wrote: post #228
jacquesm wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we all would hate to be that farmer, unfortunately for you that farmer as far as we know does not exist and is a hypothetical. There are as far as I know no pests that exist North of the border that do not exist South of it (though the reverse does occasionally happen). Of course all the good little boys and girls will only eat apples locally grown to make sure such terrible dangers will not befall the local far…

It is more complex than that. It is obvious to you that apples cannot bring any pests. Last time I checked you were an IT professional, not an epidemiologist; so please forgive me if I am skeptical of you abilities to judge whether the assertation up there is true or not. Actually, I am skeptical of the abilities of the average tourist to judge whether the thing they are already biased to do for their own comfort is…

Hilarious.

I can take an apple from where I'm sitting to the Turkish border 2000+ km away without anybody batting an eye but somehow miraculously an apple in the possession of a traveler from Canada to the USA or the other way around is a huge danger.

As for me being an IT professional: yes, that's my main occupation. But besides that I have a rather wide interest (as in pretty much anything that I can read that I can get my hands on) and have also lived on the Canadian/US border.

And the thing that I recall is that every so often the USA would come up with some trumped-up reason to declare Canadian products/produce/whatever to be so dangerous that they could not possible cross the border any more, and more often than not (in fact, pretty much all the cases) were simply protectionism under the guise of safety.

Fearmongering in the name of commerce, what else is new?

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#232

Post by jacquesm »

mercer wrote: post #218
jacquesm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give small people a little bit of power and the results are very predictable. Real lives > paper, that's the bit that people in uniform the world over seem to instantly forget the moment they put on their work clothes in the morning. I've seen so many examples of this in my life by now that it hardly surprises me any more but I still absolutely boil at it every time I see another instance.

To be fair, this phenomenon is not exclusive to the uniformed. For example, I've talked to numerous freelancers who, after having a long discussion on the matter, basically admit to overcharging their small-business-owning clients in various ways. They sell their clients 3000 euro WordPress sites with a custom theme where Wix/SquareSpace or one of the many solid $50 WordPress themes would suffice (or a plain custom t…

I think that interactions between - supposedly - consenting business owners and ordinary people at the mercy of those in uniform are not to be compared.

The first have plenty of options, the second have none.

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#233

Post by infodroid »

salvar wrote: post #187
infodroid wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a competition. While I appreciate that you were only trying to be helpful, in reality proposing false theories doesn't add anything of value to a discussion, especially when the issue can be settled with a basic web search.

Do you think asking a question sarcastically was the best way for you to add value to the discussion?

What makes you think I was being sarcastic?

I never anticipated anybody would be so moronic as to think that.

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#234

Post by mthoms »

jacquesm wrote: post #208
jff wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://jenny.tfrec.wsu.edu/opm/displaySpecies.php?pn=140 They're not asking about fruit because they're worried you may sell that single apple and drive a farmer out of business. The spread of agricultural pests and diseases is a major problem.

Of course that apple will end up carrying a scary agricultural pest from Canada to the USA. Really, this is totally over the top. It's not like we're talking about a an apple that you couldn't buy on either side of the border without any differences whatsoever. And it could easily be that that apple was produced in the USA to begin with (or further South). From a pest spreading perspective this makes no sense. Going…

Are you arguing that agricultural controls at land border crossings are ineffectual and should be dismantled?

That seems to go against (what appears to be) global scientific consensus that controls like these are helpful in slowing the spread of invasive species.

Or are you just arguing there should be exemptions for small amounts?

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#235

Post by davidivadavid »

jacquesm wrote: post #165
the_cyber_pass wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally almost nothing has changed in the real world at this point. Maybe it will change, but for 99.9% of people the US is still acting like the US always has when it comes to day to day affairs and I say this as someone who had family get hit by Trumps immigration ban.

Yes, that's the right attitude. 99.9% of the people are not affected so it doesn't matter. /s Really, don't we ever learn lessons from history?

I'm quite fond of Tabarrok's quote about bets being a tax on bullshit.

So, what are we supposed to learn from things that don't affect 99.9% of people? What exactly are you hinting at? If you've learned something from history that others haven't and that is germane to the situation, are you willing to bet money on it?

I'm sure someone will take the other side of the bet, that way we don't have to deal with the "kids these days" type of rhetoric that doesn't really prove anything about anything.

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#236

Post by peferron »

badminton1 wrote: post #129

You can assist conferences with a B1 visa. "Traveling for a scientific, educational, professional or business convention, or a conference on specific dates" is an intended use case of the visa type. ( https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-visito... ) However, you cannot get paid for it. In addition the conference must not be about recruiting.

Wrong.

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/BusinessVisa%20Pu...

> Lecturer or speaker: If honorarium will be received, ... [list of conditions that the scholar in the article visibly meets].

It baffles my mind why multiple people in this HN thread keep suggesting that the scholar in the article didn't have an appropriate visa.

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#237

Post by klipt »

WildUtah wrote: post #184

Most of the H1B folks who are here for 3yrs don't live out of the bag for 3 yrs. If this attitude remains, the smart folks will avoid US entirely. This would make most Americans really happy. We don't want H-1Bs.

Most Americans don't even know what an H1-B is (or how visas work in general). They think foreigners can just show up in the US and "apply for citizenship".

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#238

Post by jacquesm »

mthoms wrote: post #234
jacquesm wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course that apple will end up carrying a scary agricultural pest from Canada to the USA. Really, this is totally over the top. It's not like we're talking about a an apple that you couldn't buy on either side of the border without any differences whatsoever. And it could easily be that that apple was produced in the USA to begin with (or further South). From a pest spreading perspective this makes no sense. Going…

Are you arguing that agricultural controls at land border crossings are ineffectual and should be dismantled? That seems to go against (what appears to be) global scientific consensus that controls like these are helpful in slowing the spread of invasive species. Or are you just arguing there should be exemptions for small amounts?

I am arguing that if there is no clear danger one should not go overboard, proportionality is what matters.

The USA and Canada are to all intents and purposes one when it comes to this kind of control. There are some borders that have been constructed with a biological air-gap in mind but that's not one of them.

This is one of them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari%C3%A9n_Gap

And it is effective because it is both deep and there are no easy ways around it.

I've visited places where there was definite risk of contamination and there are plenty of historic examples (of whole continents, for that matter, such as Australia) where eco-systems were upset by bringing in pests, diseases, new predators or animals without local predators so I'm well aware of the risk.

But border guards going overboard because of an apple makes zero sense to me, it is an over-reaction to something that is not a threat.

Yes, hypothetically you might be able to find a path through which a new disease might spread from one country to another because of a single apple. But since we allow animals to freely roam the Canadian/US border at will, since all the diseases that might affect your apple orchard as far as I'm aware are spread on both sides of the border since as long as we can remember in most cases and since that apple could have easily been inspected on carrying some kind of scary insect (which likely wasn't present or the owner would not have brought it) and everything else it might carry (some kind of blight) would likely not be carried past the point where it would survive normal indigestion and disposal the risk is so vanishingly small that it becomes a display of power rather than something useful.

Case in point: The many apples that I've carried from one side of the border to the other without so much as a batted eye. It's either consistent enforcement or you might as well not enforce at all and I highly doubt the US/Canadian border is so well established that it would not be possible to carry truckloads of apples across if one were so inclined.

Not all of the border is patrolled, even though you might believe other wise.

When the pig disease fear was in full swing the measures were laughably inefficient and inconsistent, and that was an actual threat with serious risk of contagion.

West Nile is another nice example: Mosquitoes don't see that imaginary line we call a border. Same with ant species, beetles and other big time destroyers of lives or crops.

Having the border patrol confiscate apples might sell a few more apples South of the border and it might give the official a boner but it isn't going to achieve much to keep a country safer, rather the opposite, it's going to cause people to find creative ways to get their stuff across the border with the chance that someone does smuggle a box with seed potatoes carrying blight across un-noticed.

And that would be a problem. An apple clearly intended for consumption is no more dangerous than any other item intended for consumption including sandwiches, liquids and so on.

If you're going to forbid apples you might as well forbid those otherwise it is inconsistent.

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#239

Post by jacquesm »

davidivadavid wrote: post #235
jacquesm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's the right attitude. 99.9% of the people are not affected so it doesn't matter. /s Really, don't we ever learn lessons from history?

I'm quite fond of Tabarrok's quote about bets being a tax on bullshit. So, what are we supposed to learn from things that don't affect 99.9% of people? What exactly are you hinting at? If you've learned something from history that others haven't and that is germane to the situation, are you willing to bet money on it? I'm sure someone will take the other side of the bet, that way we don't have to deal with the "kids…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Re: How a French scholar was treated at US airport

#240

Post by davidivadavid »

jacquesm wrote: post #239
davidivadavid wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite fond of Tabarrok's quote about bets being a tax on bullshit. So, what are we supposed to learn from things that don't affect 99.9% of people? What exactly are you hinting at? If you've learned something from history that others haven't and that is germane to the situation, are you willing to bet money on it? I'm sure someone will take the other side of the bet, that way we don't have to deal with the "kids…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_.. .

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to understand. Some guy was unfairly treated at an airport. A common occurrence in the US, so it seems. Now that story gets blown out of proportions (there are many similar cases no one ever reports here), and suddenly we're on a the verge of a genocide. Let's assume that's true. What prediction would you make and how much would you bet on it that would confirm this hypothesis is right? How likely is it that it's just some TSA agent ego-tripping?
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