Live data from Hacker News

What's Really Warming the World?

bloomberg.com

201–210 of 223 posts

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the response peer review or STFU. Maybe PRoSTFU. What is that technique the fake-reasonable argument makers use? It's like a Gish gallop but slower. Maybe that's the best description of it.

The Gish Trot, then? I joke, but the whole point of the Gish Gallop is to rapid fire weak arguments. I don't think it exactly fits. As an aside, does anyone know of a good source that categorizes and explains these modern underhanded argument techniques?

I've seen the term "Rhetological Fallacies" used - there's no shortage of resources enumerating them online. Wikipedia has a whole section, there's a website called rationalwiki and commonly cited (though I have yet to read) is Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit".

For a more askew look at the topic check out Derailing for Dummies :)

http://www.derailingfordummies.com

FWIW I think its important to be careful with these concepts. I often see a perfectly valid point though a poorly constructed argument blown out of the water by reference to these techniques. There's an awful lot of subtlety to this stuff which if misapplied can cause you to miss out on certain valuable points being made just because of how they're being made. Also important to remember that these "weapons" can also be abused by the hypothetical ne'er-do-wells to prevent novel contributions to discussion ...

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#202
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great point -- and maybe explains why the theory of evolution had so much push back for so long? Maybe there's a link to skepticism and these kinds of financial or credibility links? Is it subconscious even? Could be useful in anticipating which theories would face more pushback?

No, the theory of evolution didn't have so much push back for so long because people thought "scientists are making this up just to get more grant money". It was because it went against mainstream religious belief of the time.

He's positing, not decrying that evolution vs. creationism wasn't because it went against the mainstream religious belief (which is still iffy without proper research).

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll see someone like this in every global warming discussion that happens with an educated audience. They'll put on all the plumage of reasonable dissent: "I don't think that the argument for AGW takes into account ." In an audience of non-experts, they will go unanswered, and appear to have a point, until you spend an hour or two digging through the relevant IPCC reports and discover that not only has been invest…

This has been the "go to" method of people like this who argue positions that rail against established science or history, from evolution to trickle-down to holocaust denialism. They cannot win on the basis of honest and sincere debate, so they play underhanded confidence games along with gaslighting in order to convince you to their side. Honestly, if you are engaging in this, consider whether your side really is th…

I assume you intend evolution denialism.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In serious academic-ish discussion, I think we should stick as closely to the topic at-hand and avoid... So does that mean you're willing to do the legwork to dig up the IPCC reports, chase down the studies they reference, and put together an academic-quality rebuttal? Or are you just asking for someone else to do it? In either case I offer my sincere gratitude to anyone willing to fight the weighted odds. It ain't…

I'll rephrase: I'm asking for less speculation on the [malicious] intent of someone with whom one may disagree on HN. Poisons the discussion even worse.

It's easy to hand-wring about conflict. It's hard to fight a dishonorable opponent honorably.

You have the power to make this change. Not retroactively in this discussion, of course, but in the next. Spend the time to research the truth, the effort to write a scholarly reply, and there will be no need for responses like the one you saw me make.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#205
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't care about what reference is taken. The point is that compared to any reference, the curve is increasing .

That's ridiculous, of course you need a baseline for any sort of evaluation. Your comment implies any sort of warming, regardless of absolute levels, is bad.

sorry for not being clear enough. I meant that the speed of warming is of interest here. That speed is independent of the baseline chosen. And that speed is what is worrying.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#206
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I'm having, and I have a masters in statistics, is that this data is generated after the fact. If you compare the predictions of the 2000-2010 period with the "after-the-fact" predictions of the 2000-2010 period ... There's a huge difference. According to the prediction EVERY year between 2000 and 2010 was between a 3 and 5-sigma event. In the after-the-fact model this is simply ignored, and the data foll…

You claim to have a "masters in statistics" but that doesn't really help me in understanding the main points of your argument. In a nutshell what you are saying is that a lot of the statistical models developed have changed over the last 20 years or so to accommodate the data that has actually emerged. That each of these models if they were applied today would diverge significantly in their predictions from the actua…

> I find this a stunning indictment of mainstream scientific consensus

How exactly ? Climate science is thoroughly in the humanities at this point, very much not in exact science, and this is hardly the only wrong-but-we-can't-do-better consensus that exists. People believe this and it provides them with things to do, with the "ability to predict". Except, it's not correct use of math, with the predictable result that the outcome doesn't match reality. We "believe" a lot of things for political reasons. For instance, starting in 1995 or so papers suddenly started showing that all races are equal in everything, from iq to running speed. It's becoming controversial to state that Africans need supplemental UV at high latitudes, despite the medical consequences of not doing so. Looking at differences in their performance is systematically removed from all textbooks. Now look at reality. You have watched the olympic games recently ? I assure you the impression you get from those races is more or less correct.

As for this specific one, you can simply look this up. That's supposed to be the beauty of science, except, of course where there's "scientific consensus", whatever that means. And you know, worst case is you learn something.

For the lazy, google it (this looks reasonable): http://clivebest.com/blog/?p=2208 (but obviously download the IPCC AR0 and check the data in a table as well)

Obviously there is scientific consensus in the statistics community too that you can't do what climate models do without destroying your credibility, but coming out and saying that ... isn't happening. And sadly, I know why.

Even if you disregard results, you know how the IPCC arrives at their 95% certainty interval ? They take 20 highly non-linear climate models, assume normal distribution of the results per-year (think about that for 5 seconds), and come up with confidence intervals. To claim this won't provide accurate results ... does that really require data ? At what point can you just call bullshit without further study ? One statistics paper humorously provided a proof that with this process, you can create any outcome you want.

And for the conspiracy nuts : the most recent IPCC AR leaves out actual numbers entirely. Because apparently (yes really) they're too easy to criticize.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#207
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're wrong. The predictions are very good, and your claims are based on... some wrong sources obviously. The main reference I have in mind is just http://www.energyadvocate.com/gc1.jpg that for dozens of climate models plots the predicted values of global temperature along with the observed values. Nearly all the predicted values are wildly too high. So, if we believe the graph, then in science we essentially jun…

Ah! Circumlocution. My new favourite word :) I had a look at the Navier-Stokes stuff and what I found was incredible complicated maths. I'd like it if you'd linked out to some discussions on this topic but in any case I was able to find this [0] which takes the position that many climate scientists have invoked Navier-Stokes as a theoretical basis but mathematicians in general consider the finer details of NS behavio…

When I was applying to grad school for applied math, one place I applied was the Division of Applied Math at Brown University. I had a business trip to the small jet engine shop of GE in Lynn, MA, so went down to Brown to meet some profs. Had lunch. Talked. I got one piece of advice: "Stay away from the Navier-Stokes equations."

Yup, good advice.

The Navier-Stokes equations are old stuff now. Basically they are just Newton's second law, the gas law, etc. -- just basic physics. If you want to calculate the flows of fluids -- liquids and/or gasses -- from first principles of the basic physics, then you are stuck with the Navier-Stokes equations. It's like calculating the trajectory of a home run baseball -- need Newton's second law, the law of gravity, and at least something first cut on air resistance (right, in fine detail, the air resistance would again be the Navier-Stokes equations but good enough for a baseball or artillery shell, there are some good enough, simple approximations).

Or for calculating what fluids do, from the basic physics, that is, from what we DO know about the basic physics, we just can't avoid the Navier-Stokes equations anymore than for the baseball we can avoid Newton's second law force = mass times acceleration. Yup, this is a case were we know too much: We DO know that, for calculating from a solid basis, that is, from first principles, for the math we need, we DO have the equations and they are just the Navier-Stokes equations. Sorry 'bout that.

You mentioned that you noticed that the Navier-Stokes equations are complicated math -- right!

As I mentioned, maybe we can do well with the Navier-Stokes equations for some boat hull or some airplane wing. Okay. Early in my career, I got started on the Navier-Stokes equations at the US Naval Ship R&D Center at Carderock, MD -- right, with the big towing tank used for designing ship hulls. That was before the guy at Brown told me "stay away from the" equations. He was right!

So, you are correct: Trying to solve the Navier-Stokes equations for all the oceans and all the atmosphere of the earth is a wild thigh slapper, absurd, out of the question. We don't have such a computer. Even if we did, we don't have even the required initial conditions -- that is, the current state of the flows in the oceans and the atmosphere. Or, we are stuck-o.

We will also want to know that the Navier-Stokes equations are nicely stable, that is, that a butterfly flapping its wings in NY will not cause rain instead of sunshine in Japan (to borrow from various movies). IIRC, Richard Bellman wrote his Princeton dissertation on the stability of ordinary differential equations -- IIRC the stability of the Navier-Stokes equations is a challenging topic, e.g., appears to be part of one of the Clay Math problems along with P versus NP, etc.

And the real problem is still worse: E.g., likely we would have to handle turbulence, known to be difficult. When I was at Carderock, there was a guy working on turblence; he had been for years; maybe he is still there still working on turbulence; maybe in another 100 years he will have some good progress! In principle, we are talking about handling winds blowing through trees (would need the details on all the leaves of all the trees!!!) and the resulting turbulence. Would need some good details on associated biology. Would need .... And after have all of that, as the climate started to change, we would need good details on how the biology would change, and we don't have any equations from first principles for that.

So, why do we need to do the fluid flow calculations? Well, we're talking about CO2. For that, we want to know where it goes, e.g., into the water, out of the water, into/out of seashells into the upper atmosphere, close to the ground, as it warms, as in the greenhouse effect, where it goes, sucked up by the plants, reacts with rocks, etc.

So, what people have done is use various assumptions, simplifications, and approximations. It's a little like in freshman physics where we assume a block slides down a plane, and the plane has no friction, or a ball rolls down a plane and we ignore the moment of inertia of the ball.

So, people tried such approximations, etc. We DO know the basic physics, and a big part of that is the Navier-Stokes equations. And we have more physics on the black body radiation that is the source of the infrared radiation that is the source of the warming of the CO2 that is the warming of the greenhouse effect. We have a lot of the basic physics and chemistry. And that basic science just does not tell us that there are some nice, easy approximations that will let us predict the climate.

E.g., suppose some day during the years we are predicting, it rains. It might! Then after the rains, where is the CO2? Do we have partially carbonated rain water? In principle, we will want to know where the CO2 goes. So, part of our calculation will be to predict when it rains. Hmm ....

Yes, as is often the case in physics, for some purposes we can just use the law of conservation of energy, calculate energy into the earth from the sun and energy out of the earth from radiation to space and get the balance and temperature change. Okay. But the details, if we want them, of the energy in and energy out will take us back to the Navier-Stokes equations. So, maybe we can make some simplifying assumptions. Apparently then ... we come up with the models that predicted much higher temperatures by now.

Then, in all of this, we have an assumption that is now looking like week old dead fish: It's all about the greenhouse effect and CO2 and not something else. What "something else"?

Apparently an argument can be made that, really, at anything like currently realistic levels of CO2, CO2 and the greenhouse effect are essentially irrelevant and the main cause is just clouds from water droplets from cosmic rays blocked or not by the solar wind from sun spots. In that case, we can calculate all we want with the Navier-Stokes equations, make more bad predictions, and accumulate some big computer bills. So, for accurate predictions, we'd be into predicting the sun spot activity of the sun. Hmm .... Is that at all promising?

The lecture on geology and CO2 was really interesting: It got into the orbit of the earth, the power (energy per unit time) to the earth from solar radiation, some geology, and some tricky chemistry but not sun spots!

Net, so far, it's tough to predict either the weather or the climate. Sorry 'bout that! It's also tough to cure cancer, explain dark matter and dark energy, ..., etc.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#208
post #71
post #54

That was a terrible use of graphs. The biggest error in this presentation is that author-chose a scale to ensure that the carbon scale was amplified just right to appear to be the same as the temperature scale. In all other cases, he chose small amplifications so that the other factors would appear to be unchanged. The second error in this presentation is that the graphs plainly show that aerosols do have a negative…

No it wasn't. All values share the same Y axis and are calculated by simulating climate models. As I understand it, the graphs show how temperature would have evolved if there was only one of the influencing factors present. They also tell you right in the the graph title that some aerosols have the adverse effect and can cool the atmosphere.

Okay, I am wrong about the Y-Scale between graphs. Nevertheless the author did make the incomparable y-scales between temperature and causes intentionally similar.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#209
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim to have a "masters in statistics" but that doesn't really help me in understanding the main points of your argument. In a nutshell what you are saying is that a lot of the statistical models developed have changed over the last 20 years or so to accommodate the data that has actually emerged. That each of these models if they were applied today would diverge significantly in their predictions from the actua…

> I find this a stunning indictment of mainstream scientific consensus How exactly ? Climate science is thoroughly in the humanities at this point, very much not in exact science, and this is hardly the only wrong-but-we-can't-do-better consensus that exists. People believe this and it provides them with things to do, with the "ability to predict". Except, it's not correct use of math, with the predictable result tha…

> They take 20 highly non-linear climate models, assume normal distribution of the results per-year (think about that for 5 seconds), and come up with confidence intervals.

Like I say, "stunning". Thank you for following up - I'll be sure to follow up your links etc. at the next possible opportunity.

I'm still wedded to the notion that climate change, global warming etc. "is" real, and caused by human activity, but I'm very much open to scepticism about how science is deployed day to day.

EDIT

I don't think it's fair to describe climate science as being "in the humanities" just because it can't have the same precision as physics. It is still concerned with the empirical gathering and analysis of information. Perhaps it is going beyond its capabilities, similarly to economics (hence my comparison there) but like economics it does still does possess a great degree of predictive power and pedagogical value.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll rephrase: I'm asking for less speculation on the [malicious] intent of someone with whom one may disagree on HN. Poisons the discussion even worse.

It's easy to hand-wring about conflict. It's hard to fight a dishonorable opponent honorably. You have the power to make this change. Not retroactively in this discussion, of course, but in the next. Spend the time to research the truth, the effort to write a scholarly reply, and there will be no need for responses like the one you saw me make.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN