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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#251

Post by ArkyBeagle »

grzm wrote: post #220
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we cannot disentangle rents from non-rents profits, I doubt there will ever be a coherent set of ideas on the subject.

Would you elaborate? I think it's often the case that complicated, entangled subjects can be understood once an attempt is made to do so. First attempts may miss the mark, but eventually useful progress can be made. And such disentanglement doesn't need to be complete or perfect to be useful. Or am I completely missing the mark? Do I understand you to mean that as there's currently no method for disentanglement that…

All those things are much easier to use as values than profit, since profit may include some fairly innocent or some fairly egregious rent-seeking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that - but with one caution - one must still be "competitive".

The problem is that what we mark down on the books as profit may or may not actually reflect any social benefit to the larger society through the mechanism of consumer surplus.

This state of affairs means that any discussion on profit may or may not be all that coherent because we would have to clarify if we mean rent-profit or consumer-surplus-profit.

"consumer-surplus-profit" is a signal to do more. "rent-profit" means you're not both doing good while doing well.

This is a much larger point than designing a corporate architecture. This goes to how we evaluate ethical behavior.

Re: The power of role models

#252

Post by prodigal_erik »

nickparker wrote: post #110
Oxitendwe wrote: post #24

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

I see where you're coming from, and I think we reach different conclusions because you see merit as a much more readily judged quantity than I do. I wholeheartedly agree, elevating people above the level of responsibility/work they can handle is a bad idea, as is taking away responsibility from more qualified people. Where you run into trouble is the people judging qualifications. Human judgment is an insanely noisy…

> many candidates who are equally "qualified" within our margin of error

Too many acceptable candidates? Nobody I've ever worked for had this problem. If you meet the bar, you're getting an offer, even if Chuck Norris and Jeff Dean carpooled to the next session.

Re: The power of role models

#253

Post by current_call »

SwellJoe wrote: post #178
Oxitendwe wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your argument is essentially that there are almost no women talented enough to be in leadership roles in tech This is wrong. There are plenty. My point is that these people should not be given special treatment and more opportunities if they come at the expense of other demographics. >I'm not suggesting quotas here, and I don't think Pike is either He didn't mention quotas, but he did mention preferential hiring. "I…

Given the current bias our industry holds toward men, it will require people to give women (and people of color) the benefit of the doubt more often when making hiring or promoting decisions. If our biases favor some kinds of people, our "objective" assessment of people's abilities will not actually be objective, and we have to self-correct in some way. Intentionally giving a female candidate another look, or giving…

It inevitably comes down to a choice between institutionalized discrimination and latent discrimination.

You could weigh it based on which drives more talent away, but I don't care if Silicon Valley can keep wages low for another five years. I care more about individual choices.

We can assume our behavior is wrong for reasons we can't understand and try to correct for effects we can't measure, but I see this as missing the point. The entire reason discriminating by sex or race is bad is because it creates unnecessary suffering. The bigot lets his emotions and gut feelings drive his decisions and the result is that all parties suffer. If racism is fueled by subjective feelings choking out objective truths, then why would we ignore our own judgement based on how we feel about ourselves? We should try to make better decisions, not give up on making good ones.

Re: The power of role models

#254

Post by skookumchuck »

SwellJoe wrote: post #228
skookumchuck wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4 figures will buy a 5 year old car. Your idea that women cannot start companies because they cannot come up with such funds is quite a stretch. The roads are full of women driving far more expensive cars. The barriers you are talking about are in your mind. People who want to get things done are not dissuaded by such things. People with your attitude always assume other peoples' success was a cakewalk, full of peopl…

So, why do you believe most tech founders are men?

I'll make a general comment not specific to any group. When I hear a person produce a long list of excuses, blaming others or circumstance, never once taking responsibility for any decisions, adamantly denying that they had any hand in their fate, I know where the problem lies.

Just remember the story of Douglas Bader, who had both legs amputated, and was told he was going to die of his wounds, then told he'd never walk again, etc. He went on to become a fighter pilot for the RAF, even though the RAF discriminated against legless men, shot down many Luftwaffe fighters, was shot down himself, escaped from German POW camps 3 times, married the woman of his dreams, etc.

There's never been a time of greater opportunity in tech in the US.

Re: The power of role models

#255

Post by sctb »

zigzigzag wrote: post #48
skrebbel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I mean, you took two paragraphs to write "I disagree", but you forgot the ", because".

, because ... it's obvious. Promoting incompetent people because they have a vagina is not a policy that will promote harmony between the genders, nor will it magically make meetings vaguely better. It will however lead to resentment and distrust amongst men, who will always wonder if their female boss got where she did by being good, or simply by being a woman.

If you're going to participate in discussions on Hacker News it has to be more civil and substantive than this.

Re: The power of role models

#256

Post by grzm »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #251
grzm wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you elaborate? I think it's often the case that complicated, entangled subjects can be understood once an attempt is made to do so. First attempts may miss the mark, but eventually useful progress can be made. And such disentanglement doesn't need to be complete or perfect to be useful. Or am I completely missing the mark? Do I understand you to mean that as there's currently no method for disentanglement that…

All those things are much easier to use as values than profit, since profit may include some fairly innocent or some fairly egregious rent-seeking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that - but with one caution - one must still be "competitive". The problem is that what we mark down on the books as profit may or may not actually reflect any social benefit to the larger society through the mechanism of cons…

Thanks for taking the time to put all this down. I'm having a hard time figuring out if you're disagreeing with what I've said above or adding additional context. In particular, I think I've been clear that one must still be "competitive" is something that needs to be taken into account. (That said, I can imagine a company put together with the explicit goal of "going out of business" when it's other, non-profit goals have been reached.) Indeed, I think implicit in what I've been saying is that going into business can (and probably should) include determinations of ethical behavior.

Re: The power of role models

#257

Post by urahara »

tbirdz wrote: post #190
mjibson wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? Rob's entire piece is about how a group of women in a highly technical field were influenced by role models. And we're still denying these women's responses?

I tried very hard to make sure my comment did not come across as dismissive, evidently I failed. Just to reemphasize, I am not in any way trying to deny these women's responses. I have just seen this concept of a role model bandied about before, and that is something that I have never experienced in my own life in computing. In the article, Rob mentions how in the field of astronomy, the women he has talked to consid…

I would say that everyone had and has role models, even without realizing it. First, people to the large extent are products of their childhood impressions, family, society. It's easy to see, how rarely they take paths completely different from what they have seen and were surrounded with. If you analyze you life paths, decisions and choices, you'll find some particular reasons why they took place: because something influenced you.

To me, role model is not just some particular person to follow. If you see that some group of people are common to show some particular behavior and is successful as a result, it gives you a clear signal that 1) you can do the same since you belong to that group 2) this pattern is a proven path to success. Done! No particular person, but a very strong and potentially life changing role model, that many people don't even realize influenced their life path and desisions.

0% of, say, women in some field is a negative role model, because if you are a woman and never seen successful women in this profession, why on earth should you start thinking that it is a great or feasible path? People stick to what is normal around, all their context is a role model of what is likely possible and what is not.

Re: The power of role models

#258

Post by justin66 »

tbirdz wrote: post #107
skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

>Rob is right that role models are important. I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, softwa…

> And for those who have experienced it, would you mind sharing a story about a significant role model in programming from your life?

How does this require a story? For me it's as simple as reading about the exploits of people like Gary Starkweather, John Carmack, Steve Wozniak, or whoever and thinking "I want to do stuff like that." And yeah, if none of those role models were guys, I'm sure I would have been affected by that.

Re: The power of role models

#259

Post by urahara »

tbirdz wrote: post #190
mjibson wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? Rob's entire piece is about how a group of women in a highly technical field were influenced by role models. And we're still denying these women's responses?

I tried very hard to make sure my comment did not come across as dismissive, evidently I failed. Just to reemphasize, I am not in any way trying to deny these women's responses. I have just seen this concept of a role model bandied about before, and that is something that I have never experienced in my own life in computing. In the article, Rob mentions how in the field of astronomy, the women he has talked to consid…

I would say that everyone had or has role models, even without realizing it. First, people at to the large percent are products of their childhood impressions, family, society. It's easy to see, how rarely they take paths completely different from what they have seen and were surrounded with. If you analyze you life paths, decisions and choices, you'll find some particular reasons why they took place: because something influenced you. To me, role model is not just some particular person to follow. If you see that some group of people are common to show some particular behavior and is successful as a result, it gives you a clear signal that 1) you can do the same since you belong to that group 2) this pattern is a proven path to success. No particular person, but a very strong and potentially life changing role model, that many people don't even realize influenced thei life path and desisions. 0% of, say, women in some field is a negative role model, because if you are a woman and never seen successful women in this profession, why on earth should you start thinking that it is a great or feasible path? People stick to what is normal around, all their context is a role model of what is likely possible and what is not.

Re: The power of role models

#260

Post by justin66 »

watwut wrote: post #194
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you disagree with Pike's implied priors, do so directly; don't huff about how logic that starts from a different set of premises to yours ends at a bad place when you swap the premises out from under it. One very simple, coherent way to arrive at Pike's position without sacrificing the notion of merit is to accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being su…

This women think that tech would do itself very good if it stopped to constantly congratulate itself on being best meritocracy in the world and attempted to make itself meritocracy. To tell it flat out, tech to me seems to be signalintocracy much more then meritocracy. We don't even talk about what merit is - like ever. We don\t know. If you broadcast the right set of signals and are confident, then you go up. If you…

> I remember quite a few dudes (whether in school or work) who were total respected geniuses doing completely difficult things - until I had to do the same thing and it turned out to be easy.

Of course I don't know you, but that might have more to do with your self esteem, or lack thereof, than anything else. Some people's reaction would be pleasure at their accomplishment.

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