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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#231

Post by grzm »

skookumchuck wrote: post #222
SwellJoe wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't ask them, because I don't personally know any women who are multimillionaires (except Jessica Livingston, who already does more than nearly anyone on this front). I do personally know a number of men who are multi-millionaires (even a few billionaires). All of them invest in tech; for most of them, I do not know their criteria for choosing what to invest in, but I would guess they try to avoid gender and raci…

Talk to any stock broker. You'll find there are plenty of women with substantial investment portfolios. I don't see how it is the fault of men if those women choose not to fund women startups.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from with "I don't see how it is the fault of men if those women choose not to fund women startups."

I can follow a chain of logic that goes something like:

- there's a lack of gender diversity in tech, in that there are disproportionately fewer women.

- this is a problem we should solve

- given that there's more men in tech, they're somehow to blame

Is this an accurate representation of how you get to "I don't see how it is the fault of men"?

I don't see (most) people blaming men as intentionally causing this problem. I see plenty of people, men and women, at trying to figure out how to understand the disproportionate lack of women and do something about it. Similarly, I don't see it as the responsibility of women to do this on their own.

If I've completely misinterpreted your comment, it wouldn't be the first time. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. Please do elaborate and correct me if and where I've misunderstood.

Re: The power of role models

#232

Post by tptacek »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #229
sanjeetsuhag wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend reading "Unlocking the Clubhouse : Women in Computing" by Jane Margolis and Allan Fisher. A good NPR story on this topic : http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/07/22/487069271/episo... TL;DR: It was the rise of the personal computer. Boys got more access to personal computers thereby allowing them to get farther in the field.

It's a big ole pile of petitio principii from what I can tell - the reason women didn't continue to enter and prosper in the field of computing (as the narrative goes) is because the field was dominated by men: >"Because if you're in a culture that is so infused with this belief that men are just better at this and they fit in better, a lot can shake your confidence." (Margolis, ibid) // Hang on though, the main prem…

Since pretty much nobody believes that there's a "global male conspiracy" afoot, rejecting that claim doesn't make your argument very persuasive.

Obviously, there could be a number of different reasons why a field could be unfairly skewed against women, many of which require very little intentionality.

Re: The power of role models

#233

Post by tptacek »

maccard wrote: post #138
ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

For one indication, look at the ratio of women to men graduating from STEM courses in universities. Even in school, the number of women taking STEM subjects is dwarfed by the number of men. While the issues another poster has mentioned (uber etc) I'm sure do not help the situation, it's still a huge problem even at school ages.

No, this claim is false for any reasonable definition of "STEM" and "dwarfed".

Re: The power of role models

#234

Post by tptacek »

brighteyes wrote: post #196
SwellJoe wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the current bias our industry holds toward men, it will require people to give women (and people of color) the benefit of the doubt more often when making hiring or promoting decisions. If our biases favor some kinds of people, our "objective" assessment of people's abilities will not actually be objective, and we have to self-correct in some way. Intentionally giving a female candidate another look, or giving…

You're making the standard arguments in favor of affirmative action. Those are reasonable arguments. But the counter-arguments are valid, as well: 1. You are suggesting applying explicit, intentional action: "self-correction" as you said. This is meant to counter presumed implicit, unintentional action. The big difference is that the former is noticeable and measurable, while the latter is inferred indirectly. As a r…

Medicine and the law both overtly "self-corrected" successfully, creating marked and durable improvements to gender parity that benefited the fields.

Re: The power of role models

#235

Post by kstenson »

kstenson wrote: post #124
skookumchuck wrote: post #66

The article suggests that power in computing is something men have to give. It isn't. Computing is a market based economy. Anyone can start a computing company, and run it as they please. I.e. women can start computing companies, and hire women. Women do not need permission from men to do this, nor do they need favor from men.

I would reflect on the fact that computing isn't just a market based economy. That is just on facet and even then you're assuming that entry to the market is equal.

barriers to starting a company are not based on getting permission, as you rightly say there are other factors such as social economic.

The fact that you were able to start your own company and succeed is a mixture of your upbringing, your standing in society as much as your intelligence and access to capital.

It's a common fallacy to think that just working harder or having the grit to strike out is the only factor. I would suggest that line of thinking would lead to some form of survivorship bias.

Re: The power of role models

#236

Post by SolaceQuantum »

tbirdz wrote: post #191
tptacek wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Role model" doesn't simply mean "someone you look up to". It also means "cognitively available success cases". This message board is practically a personification of that phenomenon. Among those of us running startups, most wouldn't have done so had many others not done so before us.

That's very interesting. I had always thought of role model as referring to a specific individual, I haven't encountered the idea of collective role models forming "cognitively available success cases" before.

Well for example, why would a boy ever believe he is even capable of certain career paths if he's only ever seen females in those roles? When there is little representation, the idea becomes that only that demographic is capable of the career. An example can be seen in esports like Starcraft. When the Koreans began to dominate the competitive Starcraft field, other nationalities began to cease even believing they were capable of equal success. A similar view has been common with, say, black people and track+field sports like sprinting in the Olympics.

Re: The power of role models

#237

Post by DelaneyM »

To those expressing concern that this proposal represents "reverse sexism" or is anti-meritocratic:

Merit is equal parts nature and nurture. "Pushing women into positions of influence" can also be interpreted as identifying high-performers capable of filling senior roles and then helping them get there.

This does mean giving them an unfair advantage, but only in the sense that life is unfair in general. Ultimately they are the most capable individuals for the roles they assume, and lifting them to that level pays dividends for our entire industry.

If you believe in both bolstering the meritocracy and furthering gender equality (as I do), this should be your reaction. Positioning a meritocratic ideal as in opposition to equal representation is just veiled misogyny.

Re: The power of role models

#238

Post by Oxitendwe »

msie wrote: post #212
throw_away_777 wrote: post #40

In my opinion, the solution proposed in the article of: " choosing a women over a man when growing your team, just because" is counter-productive. These kind of suggestions cause people to question why a minority got promoted, if it was because of qualifications or because of reverse racism. Reverse racism is still racism, and it breeds resentment.

If it comes down to the flip of a coin, why not add more diverse opinions if the team is male-heavy. Likewise if the team is female-heavy.

>If it comes down to the flip of a coin, why not add more diverse opinions if the team is male-heavy. Likewise if the team is female-heavy.

What is the value of having an equal number of men and women? What is a "diverse opinion"? If you hire a woman over a man because of the "diverse opinion" you expect her to bring, and her opinions end up being the same as the men on her team, will you be disappointed at the lack of ideological diversity you expected her to provide? Will she feel marginalized for her opinions not being "diverse" enough?

These feel like reasonable questions - you are implying having gender diversity will bring ideological diversity, that is, men have different ideas than women, and that this difference is valuable. However, won't that assumption also lead to women feeling that their value is diminished if their opinions aren't different enough from men, if that is the basis upon which you hire them?

Re: The power of role models

#239

Post by rbehrends »

tptacek wrote: post #147
tbirdz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rob is right that role models are important. I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, softwa…

"Role model" doesn't simply mean "someone you look up to". It also means "cognitively available success cases". This message board is practically a personification of that phenomenon. Among those of us running startups, most wouldn't have done so had many others not done so before us.

Carol Dweck's research on how mindset can affect educational performance [1] is probably relevant in this context. Importantly, the belief that ability can be improved with practice rather than being inherently limited by innate characteristics (including, but not limited to gender) by itself appears to be a pretty powerful factor in either supporting or limiting growth.

I suspect that having not just role models like yourself, but them also being commonplace can more easily dispel beliefs that your room for growth is limited by gender, ethnicity, etc. Obviously, if your field is already dominated by people like you, this is not a problem that you have to deal with in the first place.

[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/carol_dweck_the_power_of_believing...

Re: The power of role models

#240

Post by discombobulate »

tptacek wrote: post #120
adwn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being suited to men To be fair, the gender gap is present in many engineering professions, computer science is in no way unique here.

The article we're talking about opens with an observation about better gender parity in another hard science field, so it's hard to see how computer science can somehow exempt itself from the observation without special pleading.

No. Your parent comment was talking about engineering.
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