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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#191

Post by tbirdz »

tptacek wrote: post #147
tbirdz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rob is right that role models are important. I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, softwa…

"Role model" doesn't simply mean "someone you look up to". It also means "cognitively available success cases". This message board is practically a personification of that phenomenon. Among those of us running startups, most wouldn't have done so had many others not done so before us.

That's very interesting. I had always thought of role model as referring to a specific individual, I haven't encountered the idea of collective role models forming "cognitively available success cases" before.

Re: The power of role models

#192

Post by Oxitendwe »

stale2002 wrote: post #162
superioritycplx wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be literally free to learn programming if you're a woman. Girls Who Code, countless initiatives, you name it, it's there. Yet if you check contributors of any open source project it's going to be all men. What if most women are just... not that interested in programming?

You have the pipeline problem backwards. The women in tech pipeline is a leaky, toxic pipeline that results in talented women being driven out of the industry. Of course many women are not that interested in programming. This is obviously true. Because the women who DO get into programming are quickly driven out by the toxic culture. If I were a woman I wouldn't want to be in the tech industry either. It is a waste o…

>The women in tech pipeline is a leaky, toxic pipeline that results in talented women being driven out of the industry.

I'd be very interested to see some evidence of this. How many women leave, at what stage in their career path do they leave, where do they go after they've left, and how do you know that their unfair treatment is responsible?

Re: The power of role models

#193

Post by have_faith »

mjibson wrote: post #171
tbirdz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rob is right that role models are important. I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, softwa…

> Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? Rob's entire piece is about how a group of women in a highly technical field were influenced by role models. And we're still denying these women's responses?

It seemed quite obvious that the guy wasn't dismissing any of the women's own experiences and only providing his own personal perspective.

Why the rush to assume malice?

Re: The power of role models

#194

Post by watwut »

tptacek wrote: post #71
Oxitendwe wrote: post #24

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

If you disagree with Pike's implied priors, do so directly; don't huff about how logic that starts from a different set of premises to yours ends at a bad place when you swap the premises out from under it. One very simple, coherent way to arrive at Pike's position without sacrificing the notion of merit is to accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being su…

This women think that tech would do itself very good if it stopped to constantly congratulate itself on being best meritocracy in the world and attempted to make itself meritocracy.

To tell it flat out, tech to me seems to be signalintocracy much more then meritocracy. We don't even talk about what merit is - like ever. We don\t know. If you broadcast the right set of signals and are confident, then you go up. If you are humble or fail at whatever signals are in fashion that time, you go down. I remember quite a few dudes (whether in school or work) who were total respected geniuses doing completely difficult things - until I had to do the same thing and it turned out to be easy. It would be also super awesome if the best argued for ideas would win instead of most confidently and aggressively pronounced ideas.

I also think that lack of women in tech has more to do with how strongly little kids learn to associate being boy with anything tech related. It has nothing to do with math abilities, at least here boys who go to engineering and rarely really good in math (compared to pool of people who go to college). However, it is a good job for a boy that wants a job and does not have any special interest or hobby. It is not seen as good job for girl that dont really are.

Re: The power of role models

#195

Post by ArkyBeagle »

facepalm wrote: post #126
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #108

The problem isn't gender per se; the problem is how we define success and how leadership works. We're up to our neck in all sort of hubris sprung from the cultural emphasis on ambition at any cost. As Charlie Sheen might say, "Winning."[1] [1] if you don't see his story as a parody, intentional or otherwise, look again... But if diversity is your yardstick, then it's surprising how much better the military services a…

Why would diversity the yardstick? The yardstick is creating useful products. (Edit: no there can not be more yardsticks in the long run - a company needs to survive. It gets paid for great products, not for virtue signalling).

That's why I asked "If". Apparently, based on the existence of this thread, there's interest in that. :)

It may also expedite the creation of useful products. Why would we consider there is inevitably a tradeoff?

There's a lot we just don't know.

Re: The power of role models

#196

Post by brighteyes »

SwellJoe wrote: post #178
Oxitendwe wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your argument is essentially that there are almost no women talented enough to be in leadership roles in tech This is wrong. There are plenty. My point is that these people should not be given special treatment and more opportunities if they come at the expense of other demographics. >I'm not suggesting quotas here, and I don't think Pike is either He didn't mention quotas, but he did mention preferential hiring. "I…

Given the current bias our industry holds toward men, it will require people to give women (and people of color) the benefit of the doubt more often when making hiring or promoting decisions. If our biases favor some kinds of people, our "objective" assessment of people's abilities will not actually be objective, and we have to self-correct in some way. Intentionally giving a female candidate another look, or giving…

You're making the standard arguments in favor of affirmative action. Those are reasonable arguments. But the counter-arguments are valid, as well:

1. You are suggesting applying explicit, intentional action: "self-correction" as you said. This is meant to counter presumed implicit, unintentional action. The big difference is that the former is noticeable and measurable, while the latter is inferred indirectly. As a result, it is hard to know how much correction to apply. Over-correction has the obvious dangers and downsides.

2. Aside from having the right amount of correction, the intentional action will, by itself, strengthen the problem in that it makes us take gender into the hiring process more strongly. When what we want is to reduce the effect of gender. (Compare this, to, say, the screens that solved the gender problem in orchestras - they had no such risk or downside.) Now, you might argue that we need to make things worse in the short term for a long-term gain, and that's reasonable, but highly debatable.

3. As other posters mentioned, explicit action also has direct effects: women will know that they were preferred based on their gender. Yes, this is meant to counter implicit, unconscious bias, but you never know when the former exists, while the latter is right in front of you, so you can't ignore it. This can increase the existing self-confidence problem that many studies point to.

Re: The power of role models

#197

Post by tomjen3 »

brennen wrote: post #172
pjc50 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like AA, first you have to admit you have a problem. (Not you personally, but there are plenty of people who claim it's just the natural order of things.) The profession does not conduct exit interviews, but fortunately every few weeks someone will write a blog post on why they (a women) left computer science. These articles may be posted to HN, where they often get a skeptical to hostile reception. Harrasment is the…

Yeah. As I've asserted a few comments over, there's an ample body of detailed, firsthand observation available to men who are sincerely interested in the problem. It's also possible for us to talk to women who work in the field and listen as they describe their experiences. The existing gender imbalance, routine discrimination in hiring and promotion, rampant harassment, and profoundly toxic social dynamics are all r…

If we are to solve this, we need data and the plural of anecdotes is not data. Sure when we can point to individuals who are inappropriate and some proof can be provided for their actions, we can and should act on this, but that won't get more women to become CS majors.

Re: The power of role models

#198

Post by ArkyBeagle »

zigzigzag wrote: post #151
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As anecdata, one daughter felt that pursuing computing wasn't socially acceptable ( she was a cheerleader and all ) and another felt the first instructor was an abject misogynist. Perhaps women find better things to do :) I'm starting to think there is something wrong with those of us who pursue this.

And was it men who made your daughter feel like computing wasn't socially acceptable? Or was it her female friends in the cheerleading squad?

Yes. And it was her, her ... calculus of status.

Re: The power of role models

#199

Post by SwellJoe »

skookumchuck wrote: post #181
SwellJoe wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to someone who said "There's no shortage of women with money." So, in this particular comment, I am saying exactly what I said: There is a severe shortage of women with money who are making decisions in the tech funding industry. I'll go even further to suggest that the gap is even larger in tech investing than it is in tech in the general case. But, since you asked: I will now say that there are biases i…

I personally know lots of women who are multimillionaires. Maybe you should be asking them why they don't start VC funds. There is nobody to tell them they can't. Why doesn't Marissa Meyers start one? or Melinda Gates? or Chelsea Clinton? or Madonna? or Ellen Pao? or Oprah?

I can't ask them, because I don't personally know any women who are multimillionaires (except Jessica Livingston, who already does more than nearly anyone on this front). I do personally know a number of men who are multi-millionaires (even a few billionaires). All of them invest in tech; for most of them, I do not know their criteria for choosing what to invest in, but I would guess they try to avoid gender and racial bias...but, what we do not see and understand we can't necessarily address.

Re: The power of role models

#200

Post by ArkyBeagle »

facepalm wrote: post #128
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As anecdata, one daughter felt that pursuing computing wasn't socially acceptable ( she was a cheerleader and all ) and another felt the first instructor was an abject misogynist. Perhaps women find better things to do :) I'm starting to think there is something wrong with those of us who pursue this.

Do people typically enter the field via an instructor/lessons?

You have me at a loss- I'd say there are certainly alternatives. If I had to guess, I'd say most go that way, but that's purely a guess.

Good point though - neither of them tried to self-learn in high school.

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