131–140 of 380 posts
The article suggests that power in computing is something men have to give. It isn't. Computing is a market based economy. Anyone can start a computing company, and run it as they please. I.e. women can start computing companies, and hire women. Women do not need permission from men to do this, nor do they need favor from men.
But they do need capital.
>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…
>I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. You're assuming women aren't currently at a disadvantage in that selection process. Which, evidence indicates they are. So...leveling the playing field is not disadvantaging others at the expense of women. It is recognizing…
This is wrong. There are plenty. My point is that these people should not be given special treatment and more opportunities if they come at the expense of other demographics.
>I'm not suggesting quotas here, and I don't think Pike is either
He didn't mention quotas, but he did mention preferential hiring.
"It may take proactive behavior, like choosing a women over a man when growing your team, just because, or promoting women more freely."
How would you feel if you applied for a job and it was given to someone else because they were a woman? Would that not be unfair? Would this practice applied in aggregate not chase off even more talented people? I can only imagine most people would not want to stick around in a situation like that.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
But they do need capital.
There's no shortage of women with money.
The whole ecosystem is hugely weighted toward men making decisions.
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If you disagree with Pike's implied priors, do so directly; don't huff about how logic that starts from a different set of premises to yours ends at a bad place when you swap the premises out from under it. One very simple, coherent way to arrive at Pike's position without sacrificing the notion of merit is to accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being su…
>very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being suited to men There are a bunch of other professions where women are under/over-represented. CS is one of them. Others include: Mechanical Engineering Construction Electrical Engineering Physics Aerospace Engi Geography Finance On the other hand, in Biology things are a lot more balanced. So maybe it is the field of interest as opposed t…
I think it's going to be difficult to compose an argument for how computer science could be intrinsically better suited to men in a way that didn't also apply to other popular hard-science fields.
> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…
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> accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being suited to men To be fair, the gender gap is present in many engineering professions, computer science is in no way unique here.
The article we're talking about opens with an observation about better gender parity in another hard science field, so it's hard to see how computer science can somehow exempt itself from the observation without special pleading.
The article suggests that power in computing is something men have to give. It isn't. Computing is a market based economy. Anyone can start a computing company, and run it as they please. I.e. women can start computing companies, and hire women. Women do not need permission from men to do this, nor do they need favor from men.
Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…
Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.
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Like AA, first you have to admit you have a problem. (Not you personally, but there are plenty of people who claim it's just the natural order of things.) The profession does not conduct exit interviews, but fortunately every few weeks someone will write a blog post on why they (a women) left computer science. These articles may be posted to HN, where they often get a skeptical to hostile reception. Harrasment is the…
Do men never leave computer science? Or do they just write less about it, or if they do, it receives less attention? For sure men are unhappy with their companies. Otherwise nobody would ever switch jobs. Also it should be considered that women have more career options than men. Since they spread out over more professions (including fulltime mum), it is to be expected that they are not 50% of people in all profession…
All you have to do is look at incoming CS major undergrads vs finished degree CS undergrads, or you can look at any statistic at all along a women's career.
Women are leaving in droves. We do not have a pipeline problem. We do not need to get more women in kindergarden interested in math.
We have a toxic pipeline problem, when women are driven out of the industry.