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The power of role models

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Re: The power of role models

#121

Post by 19831021 »

tbirdz wrote: post #107
skywhopper wrote: post #12

Programming used to be a field with significant numbers of women, including true pioneers like Grace Hopper. IIRC, female computer science majors peaked in the 80s, and have been declining since. Even with those low numbers these days, a lot of women who are interested in programming and computer science are chased away early on, or they quickly move into more welcoming fields. So it's true that among senior staff, w…

>Rob is right that role models are important. I've heard this thought expressed a lot, but I have to ask a genuine question: Does anyone here really have any role models that were influential to their interest in the field? I'm a man, so maybe it is different for women. But I never really had any role models in programming that I looked up to/wanted to emulate. Personally, I was always interested in computers, softwa…

I'm professionally employed as a programmer, but all my role models have been physicists and musicians (lots of female musicians, too).

I've never had a role model in computing.

Re: The power of role models

#122

Post by SwellJoe »

Oxitendwe wrote: post #96
ericjang wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what of the girls who learn that their role models have been given a handicap, pushed upwards beyond their skill by well-meaning but naive men? Proponents of affirmative-action policies argue that the handicap offsets disabilities from the glass ceiling, discrimination / stereotype threat in the workplace/education pipeline. The calculus of what "balances out inequality" is imperfect, but arguably better than j…

>proponents of affirmative-action policies argue that the handicap offsets disabilities from the glass ceiling, discrimination / stereotype threat in the workplace/education pipeline. How do you know that the disparity in women in the general population versus women in computer science is caused by the things you mentioned? How do you know that they have an equal interest and potential in this field than demographics…

The implication that women need "special treatment" in order to excel in tech is why there are so few women in tech. How do I know this? Because women who have excelled in tech have told me so, I've read their blogs, I've read their tweets, I believe them (because they're clearly competent, and they've clearly explained why tech has been an unfairly challenging career path for them).

At this point, the only way to be wholly convinced that tech doesn't discriminate against women (and some people of color) is to willfully ignore the huge array of evidence, and to assume that every woman who has spoken out about their experience is lying. I'm unwilling to ignore the evidence or to assume that a bunch of women I admire are lying (for what reason, I can't imagine, because the women who speak out face being doxxed, harassed for years, and otherwise making their life miserable with the only goal being to make things a little more fair in the future for other women).

Re: The power of role models

#123

Post by facepalm »

pjc50 wrote: post #112
ErikVandeWater wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good sources that analyze the causes exodus of women from computer science? To solve these kinds of problems it would be helpful to learn the cause of the change.

Like AA, first you have to admit you have a problem. (Not you personally, but there are plenty of people who claim it's just the natural order of things.) The profession does not conduct exit interviews, but fortunately every few weeks someone will write a blog post on why they (a women) left computer science. These articles may be posted to HN, where they often get a skeptical to hostile reception. Harrasment is the…

Do men never leave computer science? Or do they just write less about it, or if they do, it receives less attention?

For sure men are unhappy with their companies. Otherwise nobody would ever switch jobs.

Also it should be considered that women have more career options than men. Since they spread out over more professions (including fulltime mum), it is to be expected that they are not 50% of people in all professions.

Re: The power of role models

#124

Post by kstenson »

skookumchuck wrote: post #66

The article suggests that power in computing is something men have to give. It isn't. Computing is a market based economy. Anyone can start a computing company, and run it as they please. I.e. women can start computing companies, and hire women. Women do not need permission from men to do this, nor do they need favor from men.

I would reflect on the fact that computing isn't just a market based economy. That is just on facet and even then you're assuming that entry to the market is equal.

Re: The power of role models

#125

Post by throwaway399 »

tptacek wrote: post #71
Oxitendwe wrote: post #24

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

If you disagree with Pike's implied priors, do so directly; don't huff about how logic that starts from a different set of premises to yours ends at a bad place when you swap the premises out from under it. One very simple, coherent way to arrive at Pike's position without sacrificing the notion of merit is to accept the idea that it's very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being su…

>very unlikely that computer technology is unique among the professions in being suited to men

There are a bunch of other professions where women are under/over-represented. CS is one of them. Others include:

    Mechanical Engineering
    Construction
    Electrical Engineering
    Physics
    Aerospace Engi
    Geography
    Finance
On the other hand, in Biology things are a lot more balanced. So maybe it is the field of interest as opposed to discrimination since the scientific culture in universities is about the same in Biology as it is in Physics.

Re: The power of role models

#126

Post by facepalm »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #108

The problem isn't gender per se; the problem is how we define success and how leadership works. We're up to our neck in all sort of hubris sprung from the cultural emphasis on ambition at any cost. As Charlie Sheen might say, "Winning."[1] [1] if you don't see his story as a parody, intentional or otherwise, look again... But if diversity is your yardstick, then it's surprising how much better the military services a…

Why would diversity the yardstick? The yardstick is creating useful products. (Edit: no there can not be more yardsticks in the long run - a company needs to survive. It gets paid for great products, not for virtue signalling).

Re: The power of role models

#127

Post by [deleted] »

4ad wrote: post #7

> The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is [...] to promote them. [...] To push them into positions of influence. I am all for equality in chances for all people, men and women, black and white, gay and straight, anything really, but this affirmative action "promote X because she is a women" (or black, or XXX) is something I will fight against with all my being and all my forces until the d…

[deleted]

Re: The power of role models

#128

Post by facepalm »

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #97
srssays wrote: post #74

Is 'diversity' selfish? Perhaps women/teenage girls aren't interested in becoming programmers, because they don't find it to be an interesting or fulfilling career.

As anecdata, one daughter felt that pursuing computing wasn't socially acceptable ( she was a cheerleader and all ) and another felt the first instructor was an abject misogynist. Perhaps women find better things to do :) I'm starting to think there is something wrong with those of us who pursue this.

Do people typically enter the field via an instructor/lessons?

Re: The power of role models

#129

Post by skookumchuck »

kstenson wrote: post #124
skookumchuck wrote: post #66

The article suggests that power in computing is something men have to give. It isn't. Computing is a market based economy. Anyone can start a computing company, and run it as they please. I.e. women can start computing companies, and hire women. Women do not need permission from men to do this, nor do they need favor from men.

I would reflect on the fact that computing isn't just a market based economy. That is just on facet and even then you're assuming that entry to the market is equal.

Nobody needs permission from anyone to start a company.

Re: The power of role models

#130

Post by swang »

Oxitendwe wrote: post #24

>The best way to improve the representation of women in the field is not to recruit them, important though that is, but to promote them. To create role models. To push them into positions of influence. I find the idea that we should "push them into positions of influence" abhorrent. These are zero sum games, to give them a special advantage over any other demographic is to disadvantage another. This is antithetical t…

You're assuming the playing field is level. That men somehow don't inherently have advantages like having the proper "look"

consider the stereotypes of computer programmers "wear hoodies, look kinda disheveled and drink mountain dew. probably asian or white" women/girls don't (shouldn't?) look like that. therefore they can't be programmers.

and let's step away from gender entirely. let's talk baseball. the entire game is based on winning but rather than choose players based on their ability to play the game, a large portion of them are chosen based on how they "look" based on opinions from scouts. "is he tall? muscular? does he have nice teeth?" "this guy threw a 90mph fastball. he doesn't have any other pitch and 3 people hit homeruns off him but he's going to be a star!"

nothing in life is fair. promoting people who have been overlooked is not a "special advantage" it is merely re-balancing the "special advantage" others have had due to gender, race, or just plain genetics.

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