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Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

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Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#151

Post by jabl »

aladoc99 wrote: post #132
tlow wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will likely never be known what compound, but the "spray bottle" tells us that the agent was targeting respiratory system, not dermal. However the use of V-Series agent is a strong indicator of military assassination as almost all research on these chemicals is confined to secret military research. The Russians have admitted to the synthesis of more than 100 more novel V-series nerve agents.[1] https://en.wikipedi…

"the "spray bottle" tells us that the agent was targeting respiratory system, not dermal. " I'm not sure this follows. If the cloth was impregnated with one of the binary components and the other was sprayed on the cloth, then VX would be synthesized right there in contact with the skin. I don't know that you could be sure a lethal dose would be inhaled in one or two seconds.

I imagine NK is the sort of regime that doesn't have moral qualms about testing this on, say, political prisoners, before using it in an actual assassination attempt.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#152

Post by [deleted] »

jszymborski wrote: post #56
crdb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While addressing a spellbound audience of young officers, he would sometimes partially immerse one finger in a small beaker of pure VX for a few seconds. Without interrupting his lecture, he would then amble to a nearby sink and casually wash the deadly chemical from his finger. The teaching point was that VX could not enter the skin instantaneously, and that accidental exposure of a small area would not be harmful…

I'm grateful for the edification, but dude, that's a very specific reference from a >$100 (text?)book on a very particular subject. I'm afraid to ask about your background :P

[deleted]

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#153

Post by mulletbum »

dmix wrote: post #144
tlow wrote: post #13

If we are talking about V-Series Agents, we might as well talk about the secret Soviet Program to develop additional V-series compounds[1] that would be undetectable by the west. It is important to note that there are many vectors of entry for a V-series agent, and in this case, evidence points to an atomized version, as opposed to the dermal administration which is more common among this class. An atomized version t…

> not the dermal would explain why two women attempting to aid "with bare hands" would not have been harmed. Can you explain exactly how they carried out the assassination without harming themselves? Each had two different compounds on their hands (or one with a rag?) and they touched his face in sequence. Then only on his face did they combine to become the nerve agent? What about the last girl who touched his face,…

She was harmed.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#154

Post by Tech1 »

rwmj wrote: post #113
tlow wrote: post #13

If we are talking about V-Series Agents, we might as well talk about the secret Soviet Program to develop additional V-series compounds[1] that would be undetectable by the west. It is important to note that there are many vectors of entry for a V-series agent, and in this case, evidence points to an atomized version, as opposed to the dermal administration which is more common among this class. An atomized version t…

There's an absolutely terrifying book by Ken Alibeck ("Biohazard") about the Soviet secret chemical and biological warfare programme. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Alibek )

Prior US Army bomb technician checking in.

Also look at State Secrets: An Insider's Chronicle of the Russian Chemical Weapons Program by Vil S Mirzayanov, Novichok is covered there as well. ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1432725661/ref=oh_aui_sear... nonref)

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#155

Post by [deleted] »

rangibaby wrote: post #98
ericdykstra wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tricking two people into using binary chemical weapons to kill someone under the guise of it being a prank sounds like something out of Hitman ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_(series) ). I find it highly unlikely this kind of high-profile assassination would be left up to unwitting amateurs to carry out, though.

> I find it highly unlikely this kind of high-profile assassination would be left up to unwitting amateurs to carry out, though. I would have agreed, but the LOL shirt? Whoever set this up (DPRK or not) has a very dark sense of humor.

[deleted]

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#156

Post by JshWright »

neutered_knot wrote: post #142
JshWright wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atropine is commonly used to treat other medical conditions. I would expect any modern emergency medical service to have it on hand (though perhaps not in the quantities necessary... we would need to use all the Atropine on multiple ambulances to treat one patient in this condition).

When I was in the army they taught us that the atropine was the antidote to the pralidoxime (or 2-PAM chloride as we called it).

No, they essentially work to solve the same problem in different ways.

To use a very clumsy analogy, imagine nerve agents like VX are slamming on the brakes of your body. Atropine makes your body less sensitive to the effect of "brakes". 2-PAM takes the foot off the brake.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#157

Post by logfromblammo »

groby_b wrote: post #141
matt4077 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly the attempt to kill Castro, of all people, with an exploding cigar should rank higher. Just imagine how that CIA brain storming went: A: "We're tasked with killing Castro. Again. Any ideas? Anything? Nothing is stupid! Castro! Go! B: "Cigars" C: "Boom!" A: "I see we're in mind-melt here. No wonder the western world trusts us with their lives during these troubling times" If you insist on actually successful…

Given that they tried pretty much anything... There were 600+ attempts on Castro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/638_Ways_to_Kill_Castro Granted, that's a figure from Cuban counterintelligence, so maybe slightly too high ;) But most of them are documented. And not only 'weird' ideas like exploding cigars - the last one, in 2000, involved 90kg of explosives: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38121583

The method seemed to be specifically selected to implicate only one person, without any direct evidence that could prove that he ordered it. It's already bad enough to execute political rivals in your own territory, but when you go and do a public "message" assassination in another country, people might start to think you may be too dangerous to be a head of state--even those in your nominally allied states.

The best that can be said about it is that at least it was a plan that actually worked. The infamous "Operation Mongoose" attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro, including the exploding cigars, seem more like episodes of a reality show about trying to assassinate Castro than actual murder plots. In this episode, Felix Leiter puts tuberculosis in Castro's scuba wetsuit. In this episode, Jack Ryan convinces Castro's ex-girlfriend Marita to poison him. In this episode, Tamara Knight tries to shave off Castro's beard and draw a dickbutt on his forehead. In this episode, Sam Fisher puts a gigantic snap trap on Castro's palace patio, and baits it with a can of New Coke. In this episode, Sterling Archer steals Castro's "World's Best Dictator" coffee mug, and replaces it with a poisoned red Solo cup. In this episode, Maxwell Smart removes the non-slip strips from the bottom of Castro's bathtub and gives him a basket of scented bath oil beads.

In contrast, North Korea's plan is "wipe military-grade nerve agent all over his face." Maybe setting it up to look like an episode of a prank-based reality show was an attempt to frame the CIA?

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#158

Post by rudolf0 »

eck wrote: post #11
gwern wrote: post #2

Does VX explain how the two women survived despite using bare hands to administer an apparently skin-absorbable poison? It has binary agent formulations, so each women could have one half on her hand and avoid any contamination by swiping very fast.

It could have been an accident that they survived. In this case the assassins dying along with the victim is a feature, not a bug.

True, but I feel like if they wanted to ensure their death, they could've just wiped them with the same rag after Kim was confirmed to be exposed. It seems they just let them go, so I guess they didn't care either one way or the other about their survival?

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#159

Post by rl3 »

Spoom wrote: post #145
ptaipale wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess there are people who haven't heard of VX nerve agents, but over here, most males have got a basic training in the army (we have conscription here). I was in service 30 years ago and VX was listed as one of the threats where you would use your gas mask, though it is not necessarily nearly enough, obviously. In addition to gas mask, the rain poncho (also known as "magic cloak") is for protecting against radioac…

I mean, VX was the subject of The Rock , a 90s-era thriller with Nick Cage and Sean Connery. Maybe people didn't realize it was real, but the knowledge was already out there.

It's worth noting that VX was depicted in the film as a blistering agent as well, presumably for dramatic effect.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#160

Post by nabla9 »

dmix wrote: post #144
tlow wrote: post #13

If we are talking about V-Series Agents, we might as well talk about the secret Soviet Program to develop additional V-series compounds[1] that would be undetectable by the west. It is important to note that there are many vectors of entry for a V-series agent, and in this case, evidence points to an atomized version, as opposed to the dermal administration which is more common among this class. An atomized version t…

> not the dermal would explain why two women attempting to aid "with bare hands" would not have been harmed. Can you explain exactly how they carried out the assassination without harming themselves? Each had two different compounds on their hands (or one with a rag?) and they touched his face in sequence. Then only on his face did they combine to become the nerve agent? What about the last girl who touched his face,…

At least one of the people involved claims that she did not know it was an assassination. After this VX revelation it makes even more sense for actual assassins use this tactics.

>Suspect in North Korea killing 'thought she was taking part in TV prank' Indonesian Siti Aisyah, 25, duped and ‘not aware it was assassination attempt by alleged foreign agents’, says head of police

>Indonesia’s national police chief, Tito Karnavian, told reporters in Indonesia’s Aceh province that the Indonesian woman, 25-year-old Siti Aisyah, was paid to be involved in pranks. He said she and another woman performed stunts which involved convincing men to close their eyes and then spraying them with water. “Such an action was done three or four times and they were given a few dollars for it, and with the last target, Kim Jong-nam, allegedly there were dangerous materials in the sprayer,” Karnavian said.

>“She was not aware that it was an assassination attempt by alleged foreign agents.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/17/suspect-north-...

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