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Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#91

Post by oska »

asdz wrote: post #36
gwern wrote: post #2

Does VX explain how the two women survived despite using bare hands to administer an apparently skin-absorbable poison? It has binary agent formulations, so each women could have one half on her hand and avoid any contamination by swiping very fast.

I'm wondering, the first one would be safe for sure, but how would the second one that apply it be safe? The chemical would have react by the time she apply it right? And since she (either the Indonesian / Vietnamese) got the reacted chemical, wouldn't she die too?

Apply the first one directly to the skin. Apply the second as a spray.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#93

Post by DKnoll »

jszymborski wrote: post #56
crdb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While addressing a spellbound audience of young officers, he would sometimes partially immerse one finger in a small beaker of pure VX for a few seconds. Without interrupting his lecture, he would then amble to a nearby sink and casually wash the deadly chemical from his finger. The teaching point was that VX could not enter the skin instantaneously, and that accidental exposure of a small area would not be harmful…

I'm grateful for the edification, but dude, that's a very specific reference from a >$100 (text?)book on a very particular subject. I'm afraid to ask about your background :P

Library Genesis.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#94

Post by dba7dba »

rukuu001 wrote: post #82
rdtsc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would even say it cares that other dissidents notice and understand exactly who did it. Had this been a robbery or some car accident it would not have been as effective. The message is "we are coming after you"

I remember a long time ago ('97) there was a major defection from the North Korean camp to the South. Couple days later, in Seoul, the North Koreans assassinated some other guy who'd defected 10 years earlier. Not only is the message "We're coming for you," but also "you can never feel safe again."

I believe you are talking about a distant relative or nephew of the North Korea's Kim family. I believe the victim was actually shot to death in front of his home by someone with a pistol, which was a big news...

Touch choice. Stay in North Korea and be dragged off to labor camp or get executed. Or defect and get assassinated years later.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#95

Post by dagw »

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #58
crdb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While addressing a spellbound audience of young officers, he would sometimes partially immerse one finger in a small beaker of pure VX for a few seconds. Without interrupting his lecture, he would then amble to a nearby sink and casually wash the deadly chemical from his finger. The teaching point was that VX could not enter the skin instantaneously, and that accidental exposure of a small area would not be harmful…

So all Kim Jong-Nam had to do to survive was walk into a washroom and wipe his face clean with soap and water?

They covered his mouth and nose, so it's quite likely he also inhaled some.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#96

Post by arjie »

tlow wrote: post #18
saycheese wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They likely took the antidotes that are available for VX right before, chemical-resistant gloves, applied the VX in non-binary form, then washed their hands in bleach and washed it off with water.

No. This is wrong. The far better approach would be "Pharmacologic prophylaxis against nerve agent poisoning." [1] A prophylaxis agent is NOT an antidote. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15792266

Isn't taking the antidote preemptively a valid form of prophylaxis?

What do you mean by contrasting the two things?

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#97

Post by InclinedPlane »

ransom1538 wrote: post #37

WHY? Why kill people exotically? Why not just use a simple garrote with a thin wire? 10 seconds done, the head would be practically off. I am sure you could get a weird pair of head phones past security. If you poison someone with polonium/exotic nerve agent doesn't it narrow down the suspect pool? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...

VX can be administered by untrained "assassins", or perhaps ignorant dupes, be easily smuggled across borders and have a very high likelihood of success. The DPRK tried to hide the evidence of the poison by attempting to prohibit medical access to the corpse, but it didn't work. Maybe they thought they could get away with it. Maybe they thought it was worth the risk of being exposed. Maybe they wanted to send a message. Who knows?

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#98

Post by rangibaby »

ericdykstra wrote: post #8
philip1209 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have been a spray bottle of some kind? > Family members and Indonesian officials have said they believe she was tricked into thinking that the attack on Mr. Kim was part of a comedy video, involving spraying liquid on unwitting victims in public. The Malaysian authorities have said that both women were aware that the liquid was toxic.

Tricking two people into using binary chemical weapons to kill someone under the guise of it being a prank sounds like something out of Hitman ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_(series) ). I find it highly unlikely this kind of high-profile assassination would be left up to unwitting amateurs to carry out, though.

> I find it highly unlikely this kind of high-profile assassination would be left up to unwitting amateurs to carry out, though.

I would have agreed, but the LOL shirt? Whoever set this up (DPRK or not) has a very dark sense of humor.

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#99

Post by rangibaby »

M_Grey wrote: post #46
NamTaf wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because slicing someone's head off requires you to be there, next to them, as it happens. You're standing next to the body as it gargles and bleeds everywhere and security will descend on you in a big way. Wiping someone's face then bailing is something that the target will shrug off as 'some crazy' until some time later it kills them. This buys you time to get out of the place before anyone realises the full extent…

Why do something that's so obvious though? Bump into someone instead and you can accomplish the same thing without a big stunt.

It's showing off, importantly, making whoever was protecting Jong Nam (in this case, the PRC) lose face.

If someone just wanted to kill him they would have done it "Markov" style and it anything else said could be banished to the realm of plausible conspiracy theories and everyone would go on with their lives (except, well, you know).

There is no way of denying what happened in this case.

It's like the CIA shooting Snowden to death on Facebook Live to show that the Russian protection there is worthless. Who's next?

Re: Kim Jong-Nam Was Killed by VX Nerve Agent, Malaysians Say

#100

Post by danbruc »

arjie wrote: post #96
tlow wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. This is wrong. The far better approach would be "Pharmacologic prophylaxis against nerve agent poisoning." [1] A prophylaxis agent is NOT an antidote. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15792266

Isn't taking the antidote preemptively a valid form of prophylaxis? What do you mean by contrasting the two things?

A prophylaxis is aimed at preventing an agent from unfolding its effect, an antidote is aimed at reversing its effects. An antidote can only be used as a prophylaxis if it has no adverse effects in the absence of the effect caused by the agent.
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