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Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

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Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#121
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would cost something like $5 billion today and would take ~2,000 people ~5 years. Which is relatively speaking a lot less expensive. Put another way, Bill G could build ~17 of them in his lifetime and not be broke. Awesome! What's at one time only the province of the greatest empire on the planet could become just one of many of a billionaire's projects. Let's scale this out from the present day with something of…

There's a certain (supposed) billionaire who wants a big wall. Not quite as inspiring to me personally, but, well, tastes vary, I guess. Also, he's planning to spend your money on it, not his.

Mexico's money, to be accurate.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#122
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a certain (supposed) billionaire who wants a big wall. Not quite as inspiring to me personally, but, well, tastes vary, I guess. Also, he's planning to spend your money on it, not his.

Mexico's money, to be accurate.

I always took that as coded language for 'I don't actually want a wall' I just want to talk about it.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#123
post #5

People get upset by the 'superhero' status of Elon Musk. Nerds everywhere worship the guy, buy his cars, watch his SpaceX launches. But honestly, let him have it, I say. He's earning it. He's taking huge risks and succeeding where others weren't willing to try.

Elon Musk's businesses have benefited from billions in federal and state government subsidies and low-interest loan programs over the years. He's taking huge risks because other people are footing the bill.

So let them stop loaning him money. He's a businessman, he has a duty to exploit any loan from anybody, as long as it's legal. If the peyote really had a problem with it they would cause the government to stop offering loans to Tesla.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#124
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shorting seems to often be about the short-term prospects of the stock. Long term, Tesla looks like it will be a reasonable company. But will it justify its stock price? Tesla is a $45B company right now. Toyota is $188B (4.1x more valuable), VW is $78B (1.7x), GM is $58B (1.3x), Ford is $51B (1.1x), Nissan is $42B (0.9x), Fiat Chrysler is $17B (0.4x), Honda is $58B (1.3x), BMW is $56B (1.2x), Daimler is $79B (1.8x),…

I would propose viewing Tesla as an energy storage company, not a car company (JB and Elon both think of Tesla this way). The car is a battery on wheels, and the battery is the product. They're not trying to be the next BMW, and attempts to value them through this lense will miss the mark.

When I worked at Intel there were some comments along the lines of 'Intel is a Fab House that designs Microprocessors on the side' One can apply that to Tesla as a battery manufacturer that also builds cars.

Strength I see for Tesla is unlike the other car companies they don't have capital tied up in the legacy car business. Granted legacy is 97% of the market right now, but it won't be in ten years.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#125
post #44
post #5

People get upset by the 'superhero' status of Elon Musk. Nerds everywhere worship the guy, buy his cars, watch his SpaceX launches. But honestly, let him have it, I say. He's earning it. He's taking huge risks and succeeding where others weren't willing to try.

No superhero. Collaborates with Trump to get SpaceX contracts. F. him.

Do you want him to sacrifice his business to short term politics?

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#126
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They beat loss estimates because they spent $500m [0] on capex instead of $1000m [1]. Not sure if I buy "got better deals from suppliers" story, but it would be awesome if it was true. Most likely they've hit delays with suppliers. [0] Q4 2016 update from shareholder letter on http://ir.tesla.com/ [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-capex-goal-means-1-bill...

I don't understand why capital expenditure is viewed as a loss. You spend $1mil on infrastructure, afterwards you have $1mil of infrastructure (which now should start earning you money) instead of $1mil of cash. H ow is that a loss?

Because profit and loss is measured in cash, not any other kind of asset.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#127
post #97

People who lose money shorting Tesla are losing their shirts for the same reason as those who shorted Amazon: cash flow + growth matters more than profitability, PE ratios, or EPS. Tesla's car business is cash flow positive but the quarterly losses are due to infrastructure investments. This is how finance can be more subtle than meets the eye. Tesla's car business is very profitable: Tesla also reported an automotiv…

Shorting seems to often be about the short-term prospects of the stock. Long term, Tesla looks like it will be a reasonable company. But will it justify its stock price? Tesla is a $45B company right now. Toyota is $188B (4.1x more valuable), VW is $78B (1.7x), GM is $58B (1.3x), Ford is $51B (1.1x), Nissan is $42B (0.9x), Fiat Chrysler is $17B (0.4x), Honda is $58B (1.3x), BMW is $56B (1.2x), Daimler is $79B (1.8x),…

Love your detailed and carefully thought out post, I learnt a lot from it (I didn't know that Mazda was just $9 billion). However I think it is wrong to compare Tesla with BMW. I am of the opinion that it is better to compare it with Apple i.e., >10 times what Tesla is valued today.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#128
post #97

People who lose money shorting Tesla are losing their shirts for the same reason as those who shorted Amazon: cash flow + growth matters more than profitability, PE ratios, or EPS. Tesla's car business is cash flow positive but the quarterly losses are due to infrastructure investments. This is how finance can be more subtle than meets the eye. Tesla's car business is very profitable: Tesla also reported an automotiv…

Shorting seems to often be about the short-term prospects of the stock. Long term, Tesla looks like it will be a reasonable company. But will it justify its stock price? Tesla is a $45B company right now. Toyota is $188B (4.1x more valuable), VW is $78B (1.7x), GM is $58B (1.3x), Ford is $51B (1.1x), Nissan is $42B (0.9x), Fiat Chrysler is $17B (0.4x), Honda is $58B (1.3x), BMW is $56B (1.2x), Daimler is $79B (1.8x),…

I think the strategic direction of Tesla is going to create considerable value in the long term - not just in selling cars, but in the industry dominating direction they seem to be headed. For example, I think of the charger network alone as the future of the gas station, and could be a deciding factor when consumers are considering one brand of electric car vs. another. Self driving technology is another race where the first mover to truly succeed will have a head start in becoming the foundation for the next generation of transportation and shipping services. The potential of being the leader in that space is much bigger and likely more profitable than the car industry combined.

Yes, there is considerable risk and other players might get there faster than Tesla, but they are certainly in the running and their existing cars collecting real-world data could give them a leg up against the competition. I would also factor in the fact that car manufacturer's and their culture are not used to building and iterating on software services like this quickly. Think about how Microsoft tried to make phone operating systems for years before the iPhone or Android phones launched, and they are now completely side-lined in that space because they just couldn't innovate or copy fast enough before network effects kicked in and locked them out. Similarly, many of those same network effects can exist with cars.

I can see a world where consumer decide to purchase cars based on their technology and charger networks alone. This could even include an App store where a large number of apps available for the car become an important deciding factor.

Once you get out ahead, I think it will be really hard for others to catch up.

Note: I'm note an owner in Tesla, but I'm bullish on their ambitious long-term prospects.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#129
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Investors are not fools I hope you're kidding, because the counter examples to this are endless.

To be more specific - investors often do not do their own homework, and assume that some other hardworking soul has. See e.g. Theranos for a glaring example of this.

Classic bystander effect, really.

Re: Tesla Says Model 3 on Track as Quarterly Loss Beats Estimates

#130

People who lose money shorting Tesla are losing their shirts for the same reason as those who shorted Amazon: cash flow + growth matters more than profitability, PE ratios, or EPS. Tesla's car business is cash flow positive but the quarterly losses are due to infrastructure investments. This is how finance can be more subtle than meets the eye. Tesla's car business is very profitable: Tesla also reported an automotiv…

I put 100% of my net worth in TSLA when it was trading at $180 a couple months ago http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-to-the-guy-who-in... . I'm already up 40%, and I'm holding (though not adding to it as my net worth grows). Such an obvious, incredible company that Wall Street will undervalue until the end of time. (For the record: I don't recommend doing this. I am in a unique situation where I can own the…

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