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Do Developers Need College Degrees?

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Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#151

Post by rezashirazian »

burkaman wrote: post #142
rezashirazian wrote: post #140

I would not hire a software developer if he/she does not have a CS degree from an accredited university. I could care less about what people learn at colleges or how someone without a degree could know more than them. It's not the knowledge that I'm after, it's the person. Someone with a college degree has shown they can make a long term commitment, take on a large and complicated task and see it through. I know that…

Wouldn't 4 years of work be pretty equivalent, especially with good references? I think college is incredibly valuable, but it's pretty ridiculous to say that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule". Have you really never worked with someone without a degree?

> that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule"

I didn't say that. I said the odds of finding an engineer without a college degree who can prove to me that they can commit and achieve a long and complicated personal goal, have been exposed to individuals who are experts in the field and have built a network of colleagues who also share the same personal traits and passion is miniscule in comparison to someone who has a college degree.

This doesn't mean someone with a college degree gets an easy pass. It just means I can make certain assumptions that I cannot make for someone without a degree, and given the importance of hiring, it's a chance I don't I would take.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#152

Post by oldsj »

pinkythepig wrote: post #67
choxi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of "open source" is also unique, I can't think of any other professions that have something analogous.

Closed source is what is unique. I can tear apart any engine to understand how it works. I can rip out the bathroom in my house and install a totally new one. With closed source, I can't just rip out component X and replace it with component Y. I can't read the binary to understand how it works (Technically I could, but I mean that with modern languages, the assembly looks massively different from the original source…

Disassembling an engine to learn how it works is like the literal disassembling of a closed source binary to learn how it works.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#153

Post by oldsj »

rezashirazian wrote: post #140

I would not hire a software developer if he/she does not have a CS degree from an accredited university. I could care less about what people learn at colleges or how someone without a degree could know more than them. It's not the knowledge that I'm after, it's the person. Someone with a college degree has shown they can make a long term commitment, take on a large and complicated task and see it through. I know that…

What would you think about a degree in "Software development"* from an accredited university? I'm sure it won't hold the same weight as CS but would you at least put it in the same league?

*It's basically CS minus the math.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#154

Post by Hydraulix989 »

alkonaut wrote: post #101
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew linear algebra in high school. I taught myself matrix math because I wanted to make games, and because the most challenging math my lackluster rural public high school offered was basic calculus. My top university's CS program had a linear algebra class that loaded me up with theory though like Hilbert spaces, wavelet transforms, spectral theory, abstract algebra, and of course, principal component analysis (b…

Linear algebra is used in even the simplest of games, and almost anything related to cad, computer vision, engineering, ... If the problem is related to web and databases and crap then there is rarely any linear algebra (heck there are rarely even real numbers) but we didn't go to school to work with databases and web forms did we ;) Obviously hilbert spaces might not be useful everywhere but for example, anecdotally…

Yes, and most of your linear algebra on the field as an engineer consists of plugging numbers into MATLAB and letting it crunch.

It's much better for the bottom line if you just use everything out-of-the-box and bolt it together with duct tape and bubble gum.

You'll keep your boss happy with your fast progress, and the bean counters will be happy as well.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#155

Post by sroussey »

n0w wrote: post #77
Kalium wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the much-downplayed things that degrees are more likely to indicate than personal projects is foundational knowledge. When you work exclusively on Wordpress sites, this is irrelevant. When you work on distributed systems or cryptography, then foundational knowledge gets pretty important. It is completely possible for any person to learn foundational knowledge outside of a formal instructional setting. I person…

You don't know what you don't know. This is what struck me about my formal education. While I also believe you can learn anything with enough material and dedication on your own, having the structure to ensure that you cover a set of subjects that constitute "foundational knowledge" can be invaluable.

Don't forget the part where you had to do things that you didn't like (possibly hated) and only much later, truly appreciated.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#156

Post by newbear »

alkonaut wrote: post #10

Succeed personally: no. Some dev jobs obviously require a lot of foundational knowledge. I wouldn't want to have a colleague who didn't know linear algebra, simply because that's important in my field. That's not important for making Wordpress sites. I think there are things "every good developer should know" such as knowledge about how cpus work, how OS'es work, how some important algorithms work, some basic set the…

"A curious mind, with a taste for the abstract. A diploma is just one clue." This is me and my BA in math. I would like employers and coworkers and people to understand this point. They often don't get it. Also, I think I've come to realize that I am actually a slow learner. I need practice and patience to deeply understand something and confidently talk about it. Where do I belong then? Personalities who say they are quick and are able to confidently sell things erk me and makes me question if they truly have the best they can give. You could read a Wikipedia page about some things and sound awesome if you have prior knowledge and a quick wit be able to convince most people of expertise.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#157

Post by flukus »

Steeeve wrote: post #127

There are doors that close when you do not have a college degree. That's the plain and simple way of things. That being said, a diploma from whatever institution with whatever major, honors, or other kind of augmentation is simply a very expensive piece of paper. Getting a good grade in a course, or doing well in a series of courses brings about precious little practical knowledge in and of itself. And that piece of…

> There are doors that close when you do not have a college degree

The question then is, are those doors worth opening? Most jobs ads I see with "requires degree in CS" are for large boring companies and government agencies.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#158

Post by technologyvault »

khedoros1 wrote: post #122
seoknucklehead wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With everything that's available in documentation, on YouTube, in forums, and in boot camps and other trainings, doesn't it seem like there are much more efficient ways to get the foundational knowledge that don't require four years of expensive college courses?

Step one: Find that material organized into a complete lesson plan. Without curation, a library is just a pile of books. Step two: Package that with a bunch of people (both experienced and inexperienced) who can help with coursework and answer questions when they come up, teams of people to work with, somewhere to live with dozens of others doing the same work, hundreds more learning unrelated things (but who might b…

What about Udemy and Lynda?

Every time I think of all the extra hundreds of hours I spent learning things that didn't help my developer career and that seemed to be distractions, I tend to compare those to courses published online that have precise learning modules that are so helpful.

College just seems like it's so expensive compared to the value you get out of other sources of knowledge.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#159

Post by mark-r »

JonathanAgosto wrote: post #28

[College drop-out here] TLDR: A degree is not completely relevant, but it gives you an edge. Im my experience, a degree is not necessary, but demonstrating skills is harder than it sounds; a lot of interviewers at non-tech companies are not technical and rely on typical CS material for interviews (algorithms and the like). As a self-thought, I rarely paid attention to this sort of stuff (I started as a web developer)…

Your salary is lower because it started lower, and there's an unwritten rule in the industry to never hand out disproportionate raises. I was lucky enough to have a couple of jobs that broke the rule, and as a result I believe my salary is in line with my degreed contemporaries.

The degree gives you an edge in two important ways. First it qualifies you at those places who absolutely demand a degree, whether you believe in their reasoning or not; having a smaller pool of opportunities will always be a handicap. Second, if a hiring decision ever comes down between you and a person with a degree, the degree will become the tie-breaker.

On the flip side, the places that won't consider you without a degree might be the places you wouldn't want to work anyway.

Re: Do Developers Need College Degrees?

#160

Post by burkaman »

rezashirazian wrote: post #151
burkaman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't 4 years of work be pretty equivalent, especially with good references? I think college is incredibly valuable, but it's pretty ridiculous to say that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule". Have you really never worked with someone without a degree?

> that the odds of good engineer without a degree existing are "miniscule" I didn't say that. I said the odds of finding an engineer without a college degree who can prove to me that they can commit and achieve a long and complicated personal goal, have been exposed to individuals who are experts in the field and have built a network of colleagues who also share the same personal traits and passion is miniscule in co…

I understand, I just don't get why a good job doesn't qualify. Work projects are much longer and more complicated than school projects, you're working with accomplished professionals in the field, and at a good office you're surrounded by people with the same traits and passion.

I know anecdotes don't mean much, but I'm sure you went to school with people who didn't give a shit, and I'm sure you've worked with great engineers who didn't go to college or have a non-CS degree. Obviously it's up to you who you hire, but I'd encourage you to give a couple non-degree candidates a shot next time. Just ask them questions about the stuff you've mentioned here. Tell me about some projects you've worked on, what are you passionate about, how do you keep up with current technology, etc. It's not that hard to make sure someone meets the same baseline of "you're committed enough to not drop out of college".

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