What I Heard from Trump Supporters • Hacker News Board

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#281

Post by Bartweiss » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC

splintercell wrote: post #256

ComradeTaco wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent a summer working for some very conservative business owners. They asked me what I felt about the great society program during Johnson. I said that I thought it was a fine program that lifted a lot of people out of poverty. The following day they presented me a framed photo of Joseph Stalin. It's not just liberals that can be closed minded.

That's kinda hilarious. If I talked about virtues of small govt, and the guy next day hands me a one way ticket to Somalia (or some stuff like that), I would find it extremely hilarious. Keep in mind, giving a framed photo of Stalin is totally different than screaming "You're effing Stalin!" (which he didn't do).

Done kindly, this sort of thing isn't just funny but an insulator against actual silencing. (I can't speak to how the Stalin photo was meant, but it sure could be funny.)

If someone is outraged by your support for social programs and calls you a Stalinist, it's way harder to feel threatened when you're looking at a framed photo of Stalin your boss gave to you. Similarly libertarianism/Somalia or whatever other over-the-top pairing applies. It's part of why I tend to defend this sort of humor as not inherently wrong - when it's well-meant it helps ensure that people don't feel threatened or ostracized. The sting has been taken out of the attack, so there's more room to get along.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#282

Post by RangerScience » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

ar15saveslives wrote: post #38

RangerScience wrote: post #2

The #1 difference I notice between people I talk to who identify as the "left" or the "right" is whether America is an inclusive or exclusive "club". Also, main takeaway from this? Don't attack people. It seems like that's a big complaint from the[se] people: I've been attacked for my beliefs and values.

> The #1 difference I notice between people I talk to who identify as the "left" or the "right" is whether America is an inclusive or exclusive "club". Gender/race war that radical "left" promote, has nothing to do with "inclusivity".

Okay, I'll bite.

I don't actually know what you're talking about. I haven't experienced either a gender or a racial war, or the promotion of it.

But I want to take this "personal". When have you, personally, been the victim of a gender / race war?

(My hunch is that you haven't, but that you see the promotion of one, because it sells.)

(Towards my points - the #1 difference is not the only difference, and there are dickheads everywhere)

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#283

Post by boona » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

darkmouth wrote: post #108

We are unwelcoming to people who are factually wrong. If you deny science, basic human rights, if you lack compassion for people who come from less fortunate countries, if you feel you're entitled to things others are not, then yes, I can proudly say silicon valley as well as other liberal enclaves are very unwelcoming to such people. Lastly, we do not, and will not welcome anyone who elects a man like trump just to…

The arrogance of your statement is shocking. Here are just a few counterpoints from a right wing perspective:

-Deny science: Like saying there is no biological differences between a man and a woman. -Basic human rights: Like when applying for a job, that my skin color won't be taken into account? (i.e. race quotas) -Lack compassion for people who come from less fortunate countries: Like how the left defends Islam, which murder gays, and executes woman for the gull of having been raped. -If you feel you're entitled to things others are not: Like the right to have a political opinion, and being allow to keep my job.

How will you know that you're so clever, so morally superior, and more scientific minded, if you won't allow yourself to hear a different opinion? The country is divided right now, not because of the right, but because of this exact mentality.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#284

Post by gred » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #64

Yhippa wrote: post #40

This one gave me the most pause: > “Silicon Valley is incredibly unwelcoming to alternative points of view. Your curiosity, if it is sincere, is the very rare exception to the rule.” Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities, and I think you see the same thing. I am skeptical by nature and try to take a scientific view of new ideas. However I feel like I get shouted down…

I think it's because "alternative point of view" immediately makes me think of someone saying that global warming is fake, and yeah,I'm not willing to debate that, it's just not worth my time. I'm curious what sort of ideas you have in mind though.

"I'm willing to listen ${them}, as long as they don't question ${sacred_cow}" is a key aspect of the unwelcoming behavior described by the interviewee. To use your example, I'd wager that most global warming skeptics (especially the ones that you'll meet in SV) have a more developed and nuanced perspective than "global warming is fake". Sure, we don't have infinite time or patience to fully understand and empathize with each other, but even a cursory exploration should be able to put the caricature in your head to rest.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#285

Post by DashRattlesnake » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

sxcurry wrote: post #78

Yhippa wrote: post #40

This one gave me the most pause: > “Silicon Valley is incredibly unwelcoming to alternative points of view. Your curiosity, if it is sincere, is the very rare exception to the rule.” Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities, and I think you see the same thing. I am skeptical by nature and try to take a scientific view of new ideas. However I feel like I get shouted down…

Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth discussing.

>> Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities...However I feel like I get shouted down every time I merely bring up a contrarian view....

> Except that the contrarian views frequently turn out to be lies, and I can't spend all my time debating lies. Please suggest a contrarian view that's worth discussing.

You illustrated his point perfectly: you tried to shoot him down by equating "contrarian views" with "lies," without proof or even example; then turned around and demanded that he back up his assertions in a way you were unwilling to.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#286

Post by lowpro » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

darkmouth wrote: post #150

austenallred wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if life isn't as black and white as you seem to believe it is?

What is not black an white about global warming or evolution? What is not black and white about abortion? What is not black and white about refugees fleeing war? What is not black and white about LGBT rights?

The solutions. The solutions are not black and white. Believe it or not, some on the right actually agree with the left on many social issues, but the problem becomes how to realistically solve them. Fixing things costs money, and many on the right (or the rust belt who voted right this election) would rather try and fix their economic problems now then solve global warming which doesn't have a clear solution and might not even be possible as China and other large manufactung nations don't oblige by the same standards as we do (thus why in many Chinese cities people have a very hard time breathing).

Note that these aren't necessarily my views, but I live in the Midwest, I hear what a lot of classic Republicans are about and why people voted for Trump.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#287

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #112

Yhippa wrote: post #40

This one gave me the most pause: > “Silicon Valley is incredibly unwelcoming to alternative points of view. Your curiosity, if it is sincere, is the very rare exception to the rule.” Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities, and I think you see the same thing. I am skeptical by nature and try to take a scientific view of new ideas. However I feel like I get shouted down…

I moved to San Francisco from a rural town, and I would feel 10x more comfortable sharing my liberal viewpoints in a small, deeply-red town than I would insinuating something anything less than 100% left-leaning at work here. People disagree in small town Utah, and it would be uncomfortable. In San Francisco you're ostracized. It even makes me nervous to leave my name attached to a comment like this, knowing that my…

[deleted]

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#288

Post by camdenlock » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #244

camdenlock wrote: post #76

None of this is particularly surprising, but it is sobering to hear it from the horse's mouth. Insane racist sexists didn't win this election for Trump; dogma did. One can no longer openly discuss certain extremely important topics (is there something inherently wrong with Islam as a belief system? Is Black Lives Matter doing good or bad things? Are women really paid less than men for performing the same work?) witho…

I don't get this idea that we can't talk about these things. Right now the entire national government is run by people who have no trouble talking about these things, and much worse. Not only can you openly discuss them, but you can successfully get elected President while doing so. You can't say, "We can't even discuss this stuff. That's why Trump won." The very idea contradicts itself.

> Right now the entire national government is run by people who have no trouble talking about these things, and much worse.

You seem to be implying that such questions are inherently immoral, and that's exactly the kind of sentiment that I challenged in my original comment. You can't demonize people for wanting to ask legitimate questions and have legitimate discussions.

There are difficult questions and there are bad questions. There IS a difference.

This question is bad: "Why do black people think their lives matter?"

This question is difficult, but not bad: "Is the Black Lives Matter movement doing good?"

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#289

Post by 23443463453 » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

austenallred wrote: post #115

darkmouth wrote: post #108

We are unwelcoming to people who are factually wrong. If you deny science, basic human rights, if you lack compassion for people who come from less fortunate countries, if you feel you're entitled to things others are not, then yes, I can proudly say silicon valley as well as other liberal enclaves are very unwelcoming to such people. Lastly, we do not, and will not welcome anyone who elects a man like trump just to…

And what if life isn't as black and white as you seem to believe it is?

That's clearly deemed wrong-think then. Clearly.

I say that tongue in cheek, but that's the point. Science has become a dogmatic pseudo-religion, not a method of inquiry and discovery. Human rights are those that align with radical preferences rather than principled ideals. And "lack of compassion for people who come from less fortunate countries" is a grotesquely glaring expression of the purely fatalist mentality that somehow America and Europe and even Australia, for that matter, somehow happened to fall into "fortune" by luck and not through Protestant work ethic that inspires to honor God through work and achievement and scientific investigation that shows reverence, respect, and closeness with God and his creation.

I know that sounds lame to may here, but reality is that the values and culture and society are the parameters that define the outcomes. There is no fortune that rewarded western culture of European origin, also referred to as "white" culture; while somehow other cultures and societies are penalized. No one is really preventing others from adopting similar values and practices and culture beyond the constant whining and fatalist excuses made based on far gone, irrelevant, perceived ills.

The Japanese adopted western ideals and values and it is precisely what propelled them to where they are. It is what the Chinese are doing, even though its through theft and fraud to get them where they are. It is not "fortune" that made the west what it is and such fatalist "others can only be successful by coming to western society" mentalities are actually quite racist as they essentially assume those others cannot achieve the same things.

Is Silicon Valley the result of being fortunate? Where is the concern with states that are less fortunate within the USA? There is a lot more here that I don't even think such people even themselves realize. It really quite noticeably reeks of self-loathing, self-interest, subversion, sabotage, and deceit.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#290

Post by cocktailpeanuts » Tue, Feb 21, 2017, 7:26 PM UTC

clamprecht wrote: post #106

shklnrj wrote: post #5

I think that when people "KNOW" that they are "RIGHT", it sometimes brings moral superiority into people. That, in addition to norms of socially acceptable behaviour, pushes people into a corner. For example - If someone goes to Bill Maher's show, anyone clapping on a conservative view point is seen as a criminal, while people with liberal point of view clap "together" as a group, with the smug arrogance of knowing t…

Paul Graham's "Keep Your Identity Small" (2009) article is relevant here: http://paulgraham.com/identity.html

I think everyone on this thread still arguing about what's right or wrong should really read this essay.

I especially found this part interesting:

> The most intriguing thing about this theory, if it's right, is that it explains not merely which kinds of discussions to avoid, but how to have better ideas. If people can't think clearly about anything that has become part of their identity, then all other things being equal, the best plan is to let as few things into your identity as possible. [2]

Last couple of years I see people come up with all kinds of buzzwords--VR, AR, Bots, "Voice is the future", Drones, AI, etc.--and turn it into their identity. "I'm working on bots", "I'm working on deep learning", etc. I doubt any successful company will come out of these people because these mere concepts have already become their identity and they are unable to accept ideas adjacent to what they're trying to build.