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Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

susanjfowler.com

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Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#511

Post by uber_burner »

Using a throwaway for obvious reasons. I started as an engineer at Uber about 7 months ago and sadly none of this surprises me. I feel for Ms. Fowler and seeing this gives me even greater motivation to leave. I can't speak for the rest of the organization but can say that Uber's engineering org has a lot of assholes like the ones Ms. Fowler describes.

My negative experience doesn't compare to Ms. Fowler's, but what I've seen basically boils down to:

1) Senior engineers and managers who lack anything approaching maturity. A lot of toxic personalities have been promoted into positions of seniority because they were at some point considered high performers. Many managers and senior engineers are concerned mainly with expanding their influence over improving the organization, helping those with less experience or — god forbid — actually getting anything done.

2) Diseased work culture. 60-hour work weeks seen as normal and encouraged as an enactment of Uber's "Always Be Hustling" cultural value. Tons of drinking, sometimes forced on you by your manager or your manager's manager. Too many unhappy, burnt out people fearful of negative performance reviews.

3) A lot of this stems from our CEO, Travis Kalanick, being profoundly out of touch. He's constitutionally incapable of acknowledging the company's real problems (toxic culture, massive unprofitability, drivers who hate us to name a few).

There are some fantastic engineers and plenty of good people at Uber, but the company rewards the bad eggs far too often and it's killing us from within.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#512

Post by weberc2 »

knucklesandwich wrote: post #133
calcsam wrote: post #15

In case anyone isn't sure why the original interaction is harassment: relationships within a reporting chain are generally prohibited, for both legal, ethical, and practical reasons. Sex becoming part of the effective job description crosses both legal and ethical lines, and team effectiveness is hindered when people wonder whether someone is getting special treatment because they're sleeping with the boss. A manager…

Tech workers (across all disciplines) need to unionize to combat this kind of thing. As has been pointed out below, HR that is staffed and incentivized by the company management only serves the interests of the management. A union is the only structure that can actually win demands for workers by organizing workers to withhold their labor. It's not a panacea, and there are several historical examples of union leaders…

I think if this post teaches us anything, it's that the system works very well, at least for well-performing software engineers. In this case, Susan found a better job with a different company where she presumably won't have to face the same levels of confusion and mistreatment. Unionization seems to come with its own cultural (and procedural) baggage, so I'm wary of invoking needlessly.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#513

Post by rdtsc »

> I was then told that I had to make a choice: (i) I could either go and find another team and then never have to interact with this man again, or (ii) I could stay on the team, but I would have to understand that he would most likely give me a poor performance review when review time came around, and there was nothing they could do about that.

Holy shit. There are terrible people who make into positions of power and then abuse it. But it is whole other layer of horribleness when there is institutional corruption and evil which encourages and protects that. With a nice little bonus of blackmail on the top -- "you'll get bad reviews if you stay, be careful".

It is humiliating to have that happen to someone, then the humiliation and hurt triples when you realize the system that you hoped is there to fix the problem and stand behind you is helping the perpetrator.

I have seen some really good programmers, if the 10x myth was true, it certainly was true for them. But I wouldn't bat an eye kicking them out in cases like this.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#514

Post by bendoernberg »

morgante wrote: post #447
knucklesandwich wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I assume you're talking about me (the person above expressing some skepticism about the 10x programmer thing). I'm actually open to be proven wrong, but I'm not sure that makes much of a difference in terms of how compensation is justified in the real world (again, ask your employer to provide justification for salaries if you think 10x programmers exist and they are paid as such). Whether or not I'm right, I'm o…

> I'm actually open to be proven wrong, but I'm not sure that makes much of a difference in terms of how compensation is justified in the real world (again, ask your employer to provide justification for salaries if you think 10x programmers exist and they are paid as such). I've had a fairly thorough knowledge of salaries at many companies I've worked for (currently the founder of my own company) and I'm not sure wh…

"It's hard for me to imagine that if things were done democratically most engineers would vote for me to make what I do." It sounds like you feel the current system works out very well for a few elite performers, in a way that the majority of workers would not be comfortable with if they had a say in the matter. I'm curious, how do you see the tension/balance between what benefits the majority of engineers vs. what benefits a small number of elite performers such as yourself?

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#515

Post by praneshp »

jacquesm wrote: post #158
cbanek wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't either, but I mean, that's a very typical reason for people leaving near 1 year after a startup. And I'm almost certain Uber is offering some kind of equity package to engineers.

Sure, but until there is a liquid market that's worth $0. Who will you sell your newly vested shares to?

Can't you hold on to the shares even after you leave? Why would you have to sell your shares when they are newly vested? Especially if you chose to have 40% deducted right away.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#517

Post by mst »

username223 wrote: post #73
calcsam wrote: post #15

In case anyone isn't sure why the original interaction is harassment: relationships within a reporting chain are generally prohibited, for both legal, ethical, and practical reasons. Sex becoming part of the effective job description crosses both legal and ethical lines, and team effectiveness is hindered when people wonder whether someone is getting special treatment because they're sleeping with the boss. A manager…

Not just sex, but sex in an "open relationship," presumably as "backup booty." It's hard for me to understand why she didn't immediately start trying to GTFO, but instead stuck around for a year and tried to make things work. Save transcripts and screenshots, find a new job, then sue at leisure.

Much though the dude was a terrible person (and fireable for doing that at work) please don't assume that all open relationships are similarly unethical. It doesn't need scare quotes any more than being gay does.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#518

Post by ChuckMcM »

DenisM wrote: post #469
x0x0 wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My partner was in a somewhat similar position. When she spoke to a lawyer, the lawyer asked her two questions: 1 - did she ever want to work in X industry again / was she comfortable with being blacklisted, legal or not; 2 - was she comfortable with this being what she did with the next two years of her life It's a harder decision to make than you think. Not to mention the unrelenting wave of assholery that would be…

Most lawsuits don't reach the court room and end with a non-disparagement agreement. Perhaps it was worth asking another lawyer?

This is correct according to the various employment attorneys who have spoken at various 'managing within the law' training sessions I've attended over the years. Sometimes you can not only sue the company but the individuals who were involved. That should be a disincentive to managers but sadly it doesn't seem to sink in.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#519

Post by zump »

shruubi wrote: post #42

As someone who is Australian and not American, if anything like this happened and HR failed in the trainwreck like manner that they did in this story, we have a government organisation that oversees and enforces workplace legislation. It seems insane to me that the only recourse you have after HR is basically "gather evidence and sue" which seems to be common advice in this thread.

Also Australian, and this entire story seems absurd to me. I guess I've never worked in an office with more than 50 people, so don't get the full gamut of human interactions.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#520

Post by kartickv »

throwaway729 wrote: post #502
kartickv wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this exact same conversation with a manager who seemed suprised when I told him people are not interchangeable cogs. He said that some people may be quicker at a particular technology / domain / whatever, or quicker to ramp up, or do slightly better work, but smart engineers can and do learn anything needed and do work that's good enough after a ramp-up that's short enough. Beyond that, he says, there are minor…

" I don't doubt that has been true on all the teams you've managed. My experience differs significantly, and there's a lot of data which indicates my experiences may have been more representative. Caveat Emptor, of course

Can you share that data?

"My experience differs significantly" might sound like "I can't pick up new technologies and work on them". What did you have in mind?

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