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Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

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Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#461

Post by cmdrfred »

EpicEng wrote: post #455
cmdrfred wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>credible oral testimony. So the system as it stands is you can be jailed indefinitely because a judge does not believe you actually forgot a password? That doesn't sound ideal.

He gave no testimony, so there's nothing to disbelieve. Everyone has the right to not self incriminate, but that's not a get out of jail free card. Honestly, what do you envision as an ideal system? The legal system can't be structured like software. You have to be able to cope with unknowns, things that cannot be proven 100%, and people who won't cooperate. This stuff isn't binary.

Regardless of cooperation I disagree with indefinite detention. Write a law that requires you to hand over a key to law enforcement(this will likely require a constitutional amendment) with a specific penalty or follow the constitution as written.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#462

Post by guard-of-terra »

ghurtado wrote: post #448
guard-of-terra wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about such a fiction but I guess that would be it. If we are persistent and unforgetting, this might become a reality one day. We should find "such people" in every generation and make sure they don't have a chance to do such mistakes to pay for them later, but on the question of payment we should be adamant. The trick here is to not be conflict-averse and not be a slave of own wallet but to care about j…

You don't seem to have a clear understanding of the distinction between justice and vengeance.

How would you ever persuade people to respect principles underlying the law when you fail to punish people who are the law?

Modern justice is all like this:

We know this guy perpetrated, but it was some time ago and he's well connected and it's awkward for us so we're going to "hate his sin" but without any effect on his well-being. But you, dear listeners, please behave.

Ah, on unrelated note, we jailed a poor person for 10 years for a fraction of damage because it was politically convenient.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#463

Post by ghurtado »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #462
ghurtado wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to have a clear understanding of the distinction between justice and vengeance.

How would you ever persuade people to respect principles underlying the law when you fail to punish people who are the law? Modern justice is all like this: We know this guy perpetrated, but it was some time ago and he's well connected and it's awkward for us so we're going to "hate his sin" but without any effect on his well-being. But you, dear listeners, please behave. Ah, on unrelated note, we jailed a poor perso…

Those are all justice problems, but you are proposing to fix them with "revenge" type solutions.

Is this maybe a cultural thing? Is vengeance a commonplace solution to problems in your culture?

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#464

Post by ghurtado »

sixQuarks wrote: post #18
ghurtado wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you do that with apostrophes? It makes your comment harder to read and doesn't add anything to it.

I think he's doing a southern accent

Sounds like the (very crude) interpretation of a foreigner who's never been to the US.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#465

Post by MaulingMonkey »

digler999 wrote: post #421
MaulingMonkey wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the goals of anti-distribution laws is to quell e.g. a local market for foreign exploitation. It's similar to banning the trade of ivory - sure, it's illegal to hunt elephants in most jurisdictions, but it's sadly hard to enforce in some parts of the world. It's even harder to enforce when the promise of wealth inspires the desperate to violence - hence the goal of e.g. "conflict free diamonds" as well. It's t…

Ah, so like prohibition ? Cause that worked so well for alcohol and drugs ?

The production of alcohol and many drugs involves a bit less fundamental horror - not that you want a meth lab next door.

Regardless, if you're saying we should focus more on treatment and less on caging people, I can get behind that. If you're saying we should just abolish the law and do nothing on the consumption side - we likely disagree on the harm done or the role of government in society.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#466

Post by throwanem »

naasking wrote: post #445
throwanem wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where have I said anything of the sort? For all the accusations of hyperbole you're throwing around, you sure do seem to be more inclined to answer the points I haven't made than to answer those I have.

I'm responding to the literal meaning of your words. No one can divine your intended meaning. You even said that my interpretation of your literal words was not far from your intent, and doubled-down on your claim that child porn is almost as vile as child molestation. I then pointed out that some cartoons are considered child porn, and contrasted that with legal porn that's also widely considered to be vile, then as…

US federal law [1], per the Department of Justice, disagrees:

> Visual depictions include photographs, videos, digital or computer generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor...

No language exists to include depictions of the sort you describe, which are trivially distinguishable from an actual minor.

Perhaps you argue from the law of a specific US state, but you need in that case to name the state on whose laws you base your argument, and explain why they have a stronger bearing on the matter at hand than the laws of the nation entire.

If you're going to continue to accuse me of engaging in hyperbole, authoritarianism, ignorant pseudoscientific wittering, and whatever else you can think of, that is of course your privilege, and I would never dream of suggesting you demur. But will you please leaven it a bit with actual substance, as in your comment full of rich, meaty counter-citations to my hypothesis around reinforcement, a comment which I look forward to perusing? That was an excellent comment, and I appreciate it! Quite aside from the tantalizing possibility of learning something new and thus improving my understanding of reality, one does eventually grow tired of the same thing over and over; a bit of variety appeals.

[1] https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-fede...

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#467

Post by kakarot »

cookiecaper wrote: post #437
kakarot wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is not a very abstract way of saying that. You straw-manned my argument. I am stating my views on state violence, and what power the state should have over others. And the state should never use violence, physical or psychological, to "compel" people to do anything. If they are a danger to society, then they can be locked away, but if they are not provably a danger to society in an uncompromised court of law…

>I am stating my views on state violence, and what power the state should have over others. And the state should never use violence, physical or psychological, to "compel" people to do anything. This allows only for crimes of commission. Crimes of omission, like negligence, failure to pay taxes, etc., could not be prosecuted against this, because the state would be using its monopoly on violence to compel compliance…

If a citizen does not want to pay taxes, and if the taxes are fair and used efficiently, then they still should not be compelled but they can be denied all government aid as well as access to certain infrastructure, or possibly even deportation. None of these things compel someone to do anything.

If the person wants to live on their own, in the wild, then there is no reason our government needs to collect taxes from them. But do I believe someone should be jailed for not giving our country money annually to be spent on things they don't support? Absolutely not. I don't even agree with sales tax. Traditionally that tax is paid for by vendors, but in modern times it has been passed on to the consumer.

And this "if you don't like it, go somewhere else" mentality most folks have about things like taxes is something an abusive partner would say. Sometimes people can't feasibly go somewhere more in line with their beliefs, but they still choose to live peacefully on their own terms.

And believe me, I have attempted to communicate with my representatives and it is fruitless and now I receive spam mail I can't seem to get rid of. Even when I get direct responses, they are empty and simply say, "I get you feel this way, but this is how I feel."

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#468

Post by throwanem »

MaulingMonkey wrote: post #465
digler999 wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so like prohibition ? Cause that worked so well for alcohol and drugs ?

The production of alcohol and many drugs involves a bit less fundamental horror - not that you want a meth lab next door. Regardless, if you're saying we should focus more on treatment and less on caging people, I can get behind that. If you're saying we should just abolish the law and do nothing on the consumption side - we likely disagree on the harm done or the role of government in society.

> if you're saying we should focus more on treatment and less on caging people, I can get behind that

Same. But just lately it seems like the push is toward normalization, and that complicates the matter considerably.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#469

Post by sean2 »

MertsA wrote: post #356
vivekd wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, combination locks are protected by 5th amendment as Testimonial evidence. I was wrong in my original post, however this doesn't apply to computer encryptions which the court seems to treat more like keys to a safe which are not protected, I'll correct my post accordingly thanks.

So if I put a dial interface on my computer I can't be compelled to give up my "combination"?

You're combination is protected under the fifth, but you can be compelled to unlock your computer using that combination, which is exactly what the judge is ordering in this particular case.

And don't complain too me that it's essentially the same thing; this is the judge's reasoning, not mine.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#470

Post by MHP47 »

teddyh wrote: post #390
dijit wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I remember you giving a talk about this at SmashTheStack in Malmo, Sweden. I believe I asked then about maybe having support for non-debian systems and eventually something like Windows in the distant future.. What kind of support would you need for it to be worthwhile investing in that?

(Other co-author here.) We did do that, yes. (I’m not sure what support or investing would mean in this context.) A Windows programmer could probably port the server side program (which holds the passwords) relatively easily, since it is currently implemented as a normal daemon in Python, and could therefore conceivably be ported or re-written to suit any Internet-connected platform, and the network protocol is fully…

Had to reset my password to login to write this.

I love the idea of Mandos, but I've had some trouble setting it up and getting it working in the past :( And there doesn't seem to be much help on the internet; most guides are flimsy with no real information in them

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