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Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

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451–460 of 504 posts

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did claim he'd forgotten the keys. Maybe he changed his mind on that later, but I haven't seen any statement of the sort.

This is a gambit that is often tried by folks in this situation. There is a famous case where someone was held in contempt for decades that you can read about on Wikipedia. At first he refused to turn over ordered monies, but later he had "lost" the money. So, I'd say, if you're going to try to go with the "I forgot" defense, you'd better be very sure not to give the court a reason to doubt your honesty (e.g. initial…

Agreed. I also think it's hard to make the "I forgot" defense without demonstrating an effort to comply. "I tried to help but can't remember", while still suspect, is more compelling than "I can't remember and I don't feel like trying".

Although that makes me wonder if there's any legal incentive not to attempt to comply if you're not confident you remember. Maybe there's some greater legal vulnerability if the failed attempt is interpreted as deceit and treated more seriously than refusal.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not fantasy. Fantasy is a world where you can tell the police "I know how to open that thing that you have a lawful order to investigate, and you don't, so any crime of which I'm suspected is now uninvestigatable, nanny nanny boo boo". The analog with other difficult locks is just fine; the fact that these locks are so good that they are unbreakable doesn't really change anything about the accused's obligation t…

> "I know how to open that thing that you have a lawful order to investigate, and you don't, so any crime of which I'm suspected is now uninvestigatable, nanny nanny boo boo" So "I know stuff about a thing that you have a lawful order to investigate, and you don't, so any crime of which I'm suspected is now uninvestigatable, nanny nanny boo boo" is fine, real and serious, but "I know a thing that would allow you to o…

>So "I know stuff about a thing that you have a lawful order to investigate, and you don't, so any crime of which I'm suspected is now uninvestigatable, nanny nanny boo boo" is fine, real and serious

No, this isn't fine. If there is a lawful order to gather evidence related to the crime, the accused can be compelled to comply. For example, the accused can be compelled to provide documentation under subpoena, submit to police interrogations, be a witness in court, etc.

They cannot be compelled to testify against themselves. When someone invokes the Fifth Amendment, the presiding officer must decide whether there is a reasonable claim that responding to the question or demand as posed may incriminate that person. If the presiding officer is not satisfied that such a connection exists or that the inculpatory value of the response does not rise to the level of testimonial self-incrimination, they can, and do, order the person to comply. If the accused feels this order has been wrongly made and that their Fifth Amendment rights either were or could be violated, they are free to challenge the order in court, but that doesn't mean that there won't be consequences for non-compliance while the challenge processes (a judge overseeing the challenge may or may not issue a stay or restraining order to limit such consequences).

>Should you be also compelled by indefinite arrest to disclose location of the body of your victim (when other evidence against you is insufficient)?

No, because that unquestionably rises to the level of testimonial self-incrimination, whereas granting access to something found during the execution of a legal search warrant does not.

>Because it looks mighty similar to disclosing password to encrypted evidence of the crime.

Ultimately the courts will have to decide whether this is similar enough or not. Under the current law, the answer is non-obvious, and it must be established by the conventional legal process, which yes, is indeed pain-stakingly slow. But there is no exceptional injustice underway here. This is the way the system works. It's not always pleasant, but then, neither is the real world.

If you want to discuss reforms that could require all cases to reach a final resolution within 12 months of their initiation, I'm all for that. Dragging these proceedings out over 5-10 years is very frustrating. But again, the backlog and slow conventions of the courts are a different matter than whether or not this man's constitutional rights are being violated (except insofar as these apply to the 6th Amendment, which guarantees the right to a speedy trial; it does not, however, guarantee the right to a speedy appeal), whether his detainment qualifies as "torture", or whether some other grave miscarriage of justice is occurring here.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#453
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the grandparent quote stating the opposite of what you've said here?

Technically, maybe. The court's language is meant to clarify that the accused does not have to disclose his key, he need only unlock his disks. There is no reasonable expectation that this would require a significant effort or testimony on his part. His case hinges on whether he can prove that the work necessary to decrypt the disks, which is understood to mean entering the keys which he remembers, is testimonial sel…

> There is no reasonable expectation that this would require a significant effort or testimony on his part.

Whether or not this is true is precisely the crux of the matter. Your comment echoes the government's position: Decrypting the hard disk is not equivalent to testimony, and is therefore not protected by the fifth.

The defence and EFF's amicus brief argue instead that we live in a world where our phones and computers are effectively an extension of ourselves, and asking to decrypt those is equivalent to forcing you to testify on your most intimate secrets, which is most certainly not kosher.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#454
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and the people who are holding him in a cage are the people deciding whether he is unable or unwilling. Not exactly any consolation.

Yes, the state ultimately decides whether someone's behavior justifies their detainment or not. Is this really news to you? Should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!" How would any criminal justice occur if we let people off with flimsy excuses like that? Most of the time, absolute certainty that someone is guilty is not possible; that's why the criminal standard is "beyond a rea…

> should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!"

No, I don't think any private individual should be jailed for failing to decrypt data, regardless of whether they are able to, as part of a case wherein they are the accused. This should be a basic fundamental right of the accused, and I think the current working interpretations of the fifth amendment are unjust.

> How would any criminal justice occur if we let people off with flimsy excuses like that?

Justice in my view is the presumption of innocence, with the duty to demonstrate guilt beyond reasonable doubt placed on the prosecution. Forcing accused to decrypt data obviously helps the prosecution, but so would warrantless searches, and I oppose both for precisely the same reason.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#455
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By giving credible oral testimony. The defendant chose not to do that, perhaps because it would have exposed him to cross-examination, and perjury charges if his implausible story was rejected (he remembered other passwords and had been caught with child pornography on other encrypted volumes, and the government may have had evidence about how recently and frequently he had decrypted the external drive, because they…

>credible oral testimony. So the system as it stands is you can be jailed indefinitely because a judge does not believe you actually forgot a password? That doesn't sound ideal.

He gave no testimony, so there's nothing to disbelieve. Everyone has the right to not self incriminate, but that's not a get out of jail free card.

Honestly, what do you envision as an ideal system? The legal system can't be structured like software. You have to be able to cope with unknowns, things that cannot be proven 100%, and people who won't cooperate. This stuff isn't binary.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#456
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the state ultimately decides whether someone's behavior justifies their detainment or not. Is this really news to you? Should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!" How would any criminal justice occur if we let people off with flimsy excuses like that? Most of the time, absolute certainty that someone is guilty is not possible; that's why the criminal standard is "beyond a rea…

> should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!" No, I don't think any private individual should be jailed for failing to decrypt data, regardless of whether they are able to, as part of a case wherein they are the accused. This should be a basic fundamental right of the accused, and I think the current working interpretations of the fifth amendment are unjust. > How would any crimin…

>Justice in my view is the presumption of innocence, with the duty to demonstrate guilt beyond reasonable doubt placed on the prosecution. Forcing accused to decrypt data obviously helps the prosecution, but so would warrantless searches, and I oppose both for precisely the same reason.

Warrantless searches are unjust because the police can come in and execute them without oversight. In this case, the neutral overseer (the court) has directed the accused to comply with a request from the investigators.

Warrants are a check against rampant tyranny. They are issued or declined by an independent judicial officer whose incentives are, at least theoretically, not aligned to favor either party.

Warrants don't exist because we think it's unfair to comply with reasonable requests from the organs of the state in the their pursuit of justice, even when you're among the accused. Rather, they exist to make sure that the requests remain reasonable and fair and serve the interests of justice.

Like many things in our government, these are checks to limit and constrain the power of distinct government bodies and ensure that they do not get out of control. It is incorrect to assume that these restrictions exist for the convenience of criminal suspects, because they don't.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#457
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the state ultimately decides whether someone's behavior justifies their detainment or not. Is this really news to you? Should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!" How would any criminal justice occur if we let people off with flimsy excuses like that? Most of the time, absolute certainty that someone is guilty is not possible; that's why the criminal standard is "beyond a rea…

> should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!" No, I don't think any private individual should be jailed for failing to decrypt data, regardless of whether they are able to, as part of a case wherein they are the accused. This should be a basic fundamental right of the accused, and I think the current working interpretations of the fifth amendment are unjust. > How would any crimin…

>This should be a basic fundamental right of the accused

Well, it's not, and that's a terribly naive viewpoint. This is akin to a legal search. Are you also against those? How is this any different than compelling a suspect to e.g. open a safe in their home?

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#458
post #394
post #206

I have a question... Suppose the suspect Alice only has a portion of the key. Someone else (Bob...) has the remaining key bits. Alice is busted, and 'compelled to give the key', and DOES provide her portion of the key. Bob is never found. Then Alice would be indefinitely imprisoned, even if she would have actually complied with the court order. It seems unethical, to me. Bonus question: Alice pretends that Bob exists…

Alice has created a file containing random data. Authorities think it is an encrypted volume and wants Alice to give up the key. Alice has no way to prove it is just a file with random data and is imprisoned indefinitely for essentially having a file with random data =]

Interesting thought experiment, but ultimately flawed. For this to make any sense, you first need to answer a question: Why are the authorities looking at Alice's computer in the first place?

Also, it's extrapolating a lot from a case that's actually a fair bit less sinister than what you're suggestion. Facts of this particular case here are that:

  1. The guy was a suspect to begin with, and they had
     enough evidence of him doing something wrong (from
     the Usenet side of the operation) that they got a
     warrant to search his computer.
  2. The disks are encrypted with off-the-shelf OS-provided
     full-disk encryption, which is relatively easy to verify,
     rather than some "purely random data that might or might
     not be encrypted".
  3. At no point has he denied having access to the keys (at
     which point it would essentially stop being a 5th amendment
     case).
Now, I'm actually of the opinion that he should _not_ have to decrypt those disks, but that's strictly a fifth amendment thing, rather than the more convoluted scenario you're suggesting.

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#459
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!" No, I don't think any private individual should be jailed for failing to decrypt data, regardless of whether they are able to, as part of a case wherein they are the accused. This should be a basic fundamental right of the accused, and I think the current working interpretations of the fifth amendment are unjust. > How would any crimin…

>This should be a basic fundamental right of the accused Well, it's not, and that's a terribly naive viewpoint. This is akin to a legal search. Are you also against those? How is this any different than compelling a suspect to e.g. open a safe in their home?

It's very much unlike a legal search. Legal searches require no participation on the part of the accused. I do also oppose compelling an accused person to open a safe, but I have no problem with the authorities breaking into a safe with a warrant. Likewise I have no problem with the authorities confiscating a hard drive and performing any transformations to the data they please

Re: Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives

#460
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should they just let him go because he said "Shoot, turns out I don't remember!" No, I don't think any private individual should be jailed for failing to decrypt data, regardless of whether they are able to, as part of a case wherein they are the accused. This should be a basic fundamental right of the accused, and I think the current working interpretations of the fifth amendment are unjust. > How would any crimin…

>Justice in my view is the presumption of innocence, with the duty to demonstrate guilt beyond reasonable doubt placed on the prosecution. Forcing accused to decrypt data obviously helps the prosecution, but so would warrantless searches, and I oppose both for precisely the same reason. Warrantless searches are unjust because the police can come in and execute them without oversight. In this case, the neutral oversee…

Just because one branch of government performs an action rather than another does not change my views of the action. A court cannot compel someone to testify against themselves just because they're the court, right?
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