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Encrypted email is still a pain

incoherency.co.uk

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Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#51
post #32
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author probably exaggerates, but identifies a very valid point. You really don't want to have this kind of confusion about something that you are planning to trust your secrets to.

The naming confusion is legitimate (PGP, GPG, openPGP) but it literally takes one Google query "PGP GPG" to answer that question in 30 seconds.

The naming of "private key" versus "secring.pgp" is very valid criticism.

Also the fact that it crashes on first use, and that it is all not very user-friendly are all valid criticisms (still!).

PS. please don't down vote because you disagree.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#52
post #7

Encrypted email is pretty much over in 2017. The emerging consensus among experts is that it's not worth the trouble, or, worse, incapable of doing much more than generating a false sense of security. That's for a bunch of reasons: * An enormous installed base of clients that won't do encryption, meaning that at best you're attempting to tunnel encrypted messaging over an unencrypted transport. * A protocol that leak…

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'm suspicious of how, just as crypto is having a cultural moment, this expert consensus is appearing against the one cryptosystem that has demonstrated itself to be genuinely effective even against the most powerful of adversaries (Snowden used it and, perhaps more significantly, leaked internal NSA complaints that they're unable to break it when used correctly). And we're being pushed towards these centralized (and centralized in the US) systems instead.

Suppose the NSA have accepted that they can't hold back the tide: users want something that sounds like end-to-end crypto. At the same time they want to retain as much ability as they can to read users' messages. What would they do? If they had subverted some security experts, how would the world look different? How can we proceed robustly assuming that there are adversaries among us?

> An enormous installed base of clients that won't do encryption, meaning that at best you're attempting to tunnel encrypted messaging over an unencrypted transport.

IP is unencrypted, so that's always going to be the case on some level?

> A protocol that leaks metadata, including some message content, at the envelope layer.

True. Worrying. But certainly not fixable by switching to a centralised system. Doubly-certainly not fixable by switching to a system that uses phone number as ID.

> Hundreds of millions of users that primarily access messages through browser clients that can't meaningfully implement crypto. > An archive-always UX that ensures that huge amounts of plaintext are scattered around the Internet by both senders and receivers. > An unencrypted installed base that ensures encryption will be opt-in for the foreseeable future, meaning that users will routinely reveal plaintext accidentally by, for instance, quoting messages and forgetting to encrypt.

Client-specific, and avoidable. Better clients are to be encouraged.

> End user demands for things like search that can only be delivered efficiently at scale by databases of plaintext (most likely at centralized servers).

How do any alternatives avoid this?

> Better to move sensitive conversations to things like Signal, WhatsApp, or Wire --- the double ratchet construction is designed specifically to make IM-like protocols secure even when conversations are sporadic and last months.

There's a place for IM-like conversations, sure. I think there's a place for email-like conversations too. Certainly I want to keep what is by a long way the most battle-tested cryptosystem we have, OpenPGP (even if used over Jabber or the like rather than over email). And while I'm probably willing to use a double-ratched construction implemented by someone I trust (i.e. Matrix/Riot and possibly Conversations), I would certainly not switch to any centralized system or anything based on phone numbers. That would be a serious downgrade from what I have with OpenPGP.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#53

Do any of these keyservers perform email verification? It would go a good way towards some kind of verification that a user's GPG key corresponds to their email. Otherwise, anyone can generate a key with any email address and push it up to the servers. The standard way of verifying it (key-signing parties) is somewhat difficult.

To me a more useful model is the one implemented by keybase, where a number of proofs are provided, tying a specific key to the user's online identity (e.g. github profile/HN profile).

Many times I want to "communicate with the persion identified as X on site Y" and this allows that to occur.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#54
post #47
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use PGP pretty regularly, too. But what does that have to do with the comment I wrote?

Encrypted email for this user group is certainly not over, and there is still no realistic alternative for it. So PGP is not going to go away completely.

Until (I assume?) not that long ago, people were also still using icb to work on OpenBSD together. That doesn't mean it's important for us to discuss future directions in icb.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Apple Mail there is this: https://gpgtools.org/index.html I use it (in El Capitan), it works really well, it's the first time I've been regularly signing my messages with PGP.

And 2017.1b2 is finally available for Sierra :)

I just updated! It seems to work :D (I had switched to Sierra but not updated the PGP suite. Nobody I send email to uses PGP :( )

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#56
post #52
post #7

Encrypted email is pretty much over in 2017. The emerging consensus among experts is that it's not worth the trouble, or, worse, incapable of doing much more than generating a false sense of security. That's for a bunch of reasons: * An enormous installed base of clients that won't do encryption, meaning that at best you're attempting to tunnel encrypted messaging over an unencrypted transport. * A protocol that leak…

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'm suspicious of how, just as crypto is having a cultural moment, this expert consensus is appearing against the one cryptosystem that has demonstrated itself to be genuinely effective even against the most powerful of adversaries (Snowden used it and, perhaps more significantly, leaked internal NSA complaints that they're unable to break it when used correctly). And we're being pushed toward…

What on earth could you possibly be talking about? No cryptosystem has proven itself less capable of standing up to state-level adversaries than email, and nothing demonstrates that more clearly than the progenitor of this "cultural moment", the saga of Edward Snowden.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#57
post #15

Your key is not importable :D $ gpg --import stanley.asc gpg: CRC error; C68D2A - 29357C gpg: read_block: read error: Invalid keyring gpg: import from `stanley.asc' failed: Invalid keyring gpg: Total number processed: 0 Edit: Your key is way too short.

This was my mistake! It's not too short. I search-and-replaced my h2 tags with h3, which broke the key. Oops.

I've fixed it now.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#58
post #22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But: why bother? Email is just one of dozens of messaging systems available to Internet users. No, it's not. It's the only widely available, decentralized system, with which you can send to anyone, if you know the address. None of the big ones is this open. XMPP tried to address this and failed; now Matrix is trying again.

WhatsApp has over a billion users. There are big places where its market share exceeds that of SMS --- another big centralized service that has a userbase comparable to that of email. My conclusion is that the people who care about "decentralized" systems are a rounding error. I care about non-technologists managing to send asynchronous messages to each other that are well-encrypted by default. That's a solved proble…

People who care about encryption are a rounding error too. I care about non-technologists managing to send asynchronous messages to each other that are not controlled by a centralized entity (especially not one based in a country who's interests are often adverse to my own). That's a solved problem that you seem to be trying very hard to unsolve.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#59
post #37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 99, webmail providers were nearly all using squirrelmail or some self-invented thing and people were using offline mail clients, where GPG/PGG could have been an option. The terminals were behind, cloud computing ahead, and everyone knew your stuff is gone if your are careless and reinstall your computer, since POP3 was still a common thing. (Unlike IMAP, POP is usually used in a mode where no copies are left on t…

No. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but people on message boards today seem pretty convinced that Snowden invented concern over dragnet encryption. Get a copy of Applied Cryptography and thumb through it; it's shot through with the mindset that NSA (specifically: NSA) is reading all your mail. The 1990s were the decade of the cipherpunks, the Clipper Chip, the crypto wars, Echelon, and the hacker crackdown…

NSA, of course.

But NSA - I really hope - doesn't sell your data for profit to insurance and medical companies, so there's a difference. If NSA picks up something serious about you, you're in deep trouble, but the current data sniffer companies can make your life really hard without you even realizing it.

Re: Encrypted email is still a pain

#60
post #56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'm suspicious of how, just as crypto is having a cultural moment, this expert consensus is appearing against the one cryptosystem that has demonstrated itself to be genuinely effective even against the most powerful of adversaries (Snowden used it and, perhaps more significantly, leaked internal NSA complaints that they're unable to break it when used correctly). And we're being pushed toward…

What on earth could you possibly be talking about? No cryptosystem has proven itself less capable of standing up to state-level adversaries than email, and nothing demonstrates that more clearly than the progenitor of this "cultural moment", the saga of Edward Snowden.

Plaintext email doesn't resist state-level adversaries. Email with OpenPGP does.
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