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A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

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Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#411

Post by wapz »

Kostchei wrote: post #302
Sir_Substance wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So how do you protect yourself? Here, now, today? Set all your accounts up with auto-generated passwords, and store the whole lot in a password vault[1]. Don't bring the password vault file with you when you cross the border. Arrange to acquire it after you have entered the country[2]. Now you can honestly say you don't know any of your passwords. If enough people do this, then this law will be pointless. Also, for…

How about this. Make 2 email accounts. One for your stuff, one that is more or less empty. Re-set your phone to factory. Synch with the empty account. When you are in-country, reset phone, synch with first account. Done. 45 minutes or less with decent wi-fi. Of course my preference is to avoid said country on principle in the first place.

I really don't understand how they would ever enforce the "social media accounts." It's pretty easy to just have two facebook and twitter accounts. If it becomes a problem everyone affected would have multiple accounts.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#412

Post by donquichotte »

LoonyBalloony wrote: post #406
donquichotte wrote: post #405

This reminds me of the guards on the border between Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan that wanted to check the photos on my phone, presumably because the import of pornographic material into Uzbekistan is strictly outlawed.

Oh man, good thing the guards didn't know you were naked underneath your clothes!

Also, they have decent internet and little censoring in the country.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#413

Post by trustfundbaby »

purple-again wrote: post #398
mozumder wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct that you pretty much have no rights at the border. The moment you step outside the US, you can be killed by US a drone strike, or the CPB agent can simply shoot you if they wish. It's a broken hole in our system that needs to change, but don't expect any change for at least 2-4 years.

The CPB agent can just shoot you if he wishes? That's some seriously ridiculous hyperbole. No American is getting shot by border agents on a whim.

Until it actually happens.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#414

Post by Sir_Substance »

DrScump wrote: post #292
Sir_Substance wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So how do you protect yourself? Here, now, today? Set all your accounts up with auto-generated passwords, and store the whole lot in a password vault[1]. Don't bring the password vault file with you when you cross the border. Arrange to acquire it after you have entered the country[2]. Now you can honestly say you don't know any of your passwords. If enough people do this, then this law will be pointless. Also, for…

Also, for the love of god stop bringing your smartphone with you when you travel. Is there a risk of bringing a smartphone with no past context on it (e.g. a previously-unused refurb or new phone)? Even one that has been factory reset would give basic prying eyes nothing to find, barring the use of forensic tools.

>Is there a risk of bringing a smartphone with no past context on it (e.g. a previously-unused refurb or new phone)?

If you're willing to have two smartphones, or to backup and wipe your smartphone when you travel (don't forget the sim), then I guess not that much. I definitely couldn't be bothered though, hence the cheapie phone. Your mileage may vary if you're going for a 3 months sojourn I guess, I usually do 2-3 day trips.

However, back on the sliding scale of paranoia, the main risk of bringing your phone with you if you want next level protection from the US is that if they ever take your phone and remove it from your field if view, you might want to bin it. The US has proven very adept at modifying circuitry of devices to monitor them[1]. A cheap feature phone can be binned without thought.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa...

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#415

Post by vertex-four »

benevol wrote: post #395
anigbrowl wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course. Fun fact: if you are mistakenly placed in immigration detention, you're not automatically entitled to a hearing until 6 months have passed, so you'd better hope someone knows to file a habeas petition on your behalf. In fact you're not automatically entitled to a hearing at all, but that was the working compromise established last time this ended u…

> CBP have deported US citizens in the past. 'Accidentally,' of course. And to think that there are actually still people attracted to such a system and wanting to immigrate. It is amazing.

The US (and a large number of companies built around helping people emigrate to the US) puts a lot of effort into marketing, and frankly speaking, it's not a lot worse than most places people emigrate to the US from.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#416

Post by tanderson92 »

mahyarm wrote: post #295
bsilvereagle wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment [0] claims that under the Jay Treaty [1] you're essentially given a free pass at "the border". But according to Wikipedia and this article [2], at best this only applies to the Canadian border. If this claims are true, I'm surprised that the EFF & ACLU aren't educating everyone about this exemption. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11742399 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Treaty#American_In…

If your a Canadian citizen with %50+ native blood you can apply for a green card / citizenship at the border because of the jay treaty. That's a very small amount of people although. Canada is a lot more stringent about jay treaty rights in this case although than the US. It's actually harder! I really doubt though all of these guy's details are correct, since it would mean all native born Canadians could just apply…

> If your a Canadian citizen with %50+ native blood....

> since it would mean all native born Canadians could just apply for US citizenship on the border

These are not equivalent, and so it's clear why not all native born Canadians can apply for US citizenship at the border. In particular Native-Canadian is not the same as native-born Canadian. It's like the difference between Native Americans and native-born Americans (note the difference in capitalization, if that helps).

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#417

Post by canttestthis »

JammyDodger wrote: post #410

Why is this even a story? I've had the same thing happen to multiple times coming into the UK. I'm also white and British if that makes any difference.

Because unlike the UK, the US has fundamental principles and values that are diametrically opposed to this.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#418

Post by junto »

biafra wrote: post #206

What is the worst that can happen to a non US citizen, who is not producing the passwords they demand? Being send back immediately and all belongings seized? Or only devices they do not get the decryption passwords for? Detainment for how long? Being charged with what?

If I were the US government with aspirations of complete population control, I'd be using the NSA data secretly to build a database of every single person, and producing a "risk/threat score".

Every action you take online will alter this score. Every person they are connected to would influence their score, not unlike Google PageRank.

Slowly you build up a picture of every single citizen, and anyone visiting the US would also be subject to this, possibly triggered by a visa waiver program application or a visa application.

By the time you land on US soil and your passport is scanned, the immigration agent will simply be warned that the traveller requires x, y, and z actions to be carried out.

I'll get my tinfoil hat out now.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#419

Post by agd »

JammyDodger wrote: post #410

Why is this even a story? I've had the same thing happen to multiple times coming into the UK. I'm also white and British if that makes any difference.

Just because we in the UK have the awful Schedule 7, does not mean it's generally acceptable in Western democracies.

Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

#420

Post by simonh »

aioprisan wrote: post #316
manarth wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they have a warrant, you can plead 5th and just not give them the pin. And then languish in jail for a year plus? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728

Not the same kind of case, since there was an issued warrant. This isn't the same type of case at all.

It's the same. The contention is that unlocking the phone yourself does not require actually providing your PIN. You're only being required to provide your phone in an unlocked state.
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