Telecommunications devices are so strongly regulated and the laws regarding privacy so systemically ignored that it's a wonder we even petition our rhetorical "ownership" of said stuff. Jokes aside, just because an airport is an "effective border" and also a big police station at the same time, that does not mean you waive your rights.
A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
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Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#232> More importantly, travelers are not legally required to unlock their devices, although agents can detain them for significant periods of time if they do not.
What kind of ridiculous technicality is that? Detainment isn't supposed to be a tool to coerce cooperation.
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If they find anything politically disturbing on the phone, they can refuse you entry. No they can't. Refusing to allow a US citizen to (ever) re-enter the country isn't allowed. At worst they can detain you.
I am really curious: What is the reasoning to allow this to happen to US citizens?
The theory is that 4th amendment protections are relaxed at the border (but they're not entirely eliminated). [0] That allows them to search your physical property and to request digital access, but it does not override the Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination.
However, CBP does not have the right to demand that you give up your passwords as a citizen. They can attempt to coerce you through detention (but if that detainment were prolonged you'd have a solid habeas corpus case).
[0] https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-tra...
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that's destruction of evidence.
Only if you're accused of a crime, right? Which is not the case here. They just want to search your data. Although if you're not a citizen they will probably not let you enter the country.
> Only if you're accused of a crime, right?
Not really. As soon as you know there's an investigation against you, any action to purposely destroy relevant evidence can be used against you, even if there was no formal crime charge yet. For companies, they usually get special letter that instructs them to preserve evidence due to investigation ongoing or lawsuit pending. It is also common in civil cases, where there's no crime to talk about at all.
But on a personal level CBP agent saying "we need information on your phone" can be treated as informing you about necessity to preserve evidence, and they may as well just give you a printed instruction saying you have to preserve it. Once they did that, purposely destroying evidence (which is anything they could consider relevant) is a crime.
Unfortunately, you are not likely to get off on technicality with this - they know the technicalities much better than you. The whole policy of border being "rights-free zone" needs change, not finding a loophole.
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll protect myself by refusing. They can detain me for as long as they want. I'll fight it in court, because I am a US citizen and god dammit they do not have the right to warrantlessly review my encrypted communications. If we've gone so far on the path towards authoritarianism that even citizens don't have rights, I'll just never come back in.
> I'll protect myself by refusing. They can detain me for as long as they want. I'll fight it in court, because I am a US citizen and god dammit they do not have the right to warrantlessly review my encrypted communications. While I don't agree it's a good thing, I think they do have the right to detain you indefinitely and/or search whatever they damn well please if it's on your person. I don't think asking for a pa…
CBP can't deny entry to a US citizen.
They could temporarily inconvenience you, or confiscate your belongings (or arrest you if you actually break the law)... but they would not legally be able to detain you indefinitely. A lawyer would have a field day with that.
Since there's nothing actually illegal about refusing to unlock your phone, at worst you'd lose your phone while they attempt to crack it offline.
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#236Their point about how other countries will take the US's stance as a cue is somewhat scary. If you try and cross any border it will be relinquishing access to all accounts. I'm assuming email also comes along with 'social media', since communication is by its definition social. So how do you protect yourself? I think just going with "Don't have any social media" isn't a good answer because the relationship that child…
Within Europe (ps: as a European citizen) you can go anywhere with a personal identification card (no passport) and there are no border controls (when walking or driving). There isn't even a border, just a sign: welcome to $country (ps: and maybe local driving instructions). Say what you will about the EU, but this has been a great achievement. I can go through airport security between two EU countries and security w…
Europe varies. In the Netherlands you are supposed to carry ID at all times, and you can be fined if you don't supply it when the police ask.
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
They actually detained him because he didn't have a Visa to be in the US, which is a requirement for anyone, even those who would not normally need a visa, who has been to Iran and a select few other countries in the last few years. That isn't to say the entire situation wasn't bullshit, just that it wasn't the case of the Borders agent randomly stopping him for being in Iran.
Not sure what you mean by that. Norwegian nationals are covered by U.S. Visa Waiver program, they don't need a visa.
They do if they've been to Iran.
Its a relatively new rule.
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#238Their point about how other countries will take the US's stance as a cue is somewhat scary. If you try and cross any border it will be relinquishing access to all accounts. I'm assuming email also comes along with 'social media', since communication is by its definition social. So how do you protect yourself? I think just going with "Don't have any social media" isn't a good answer because the relationship that child…
I'd suggest not even taking a phone if you are visiting the US. You can presumably buy a prepaid phone there if you need one during the trip, and connect it to your existing online accounts.
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#239What is the worst that can happen to a non US citizen, who is not producing the passwords they demand? Being send back immediately and all belongings seized? Or only devices they do not get the decryption passwords for? Detainment for how long? Being charged with what?
Well, the worst probably involves being abducted and tortured, but I'd expect that to be only if you were at least suspected of being a particular known person of interest.
I think the worst likely case if you're just generally noncooperative is being detained for hours/days then sent back and banned from the US for life.
Re: A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone
#240[deleted]