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California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

nytimes.com

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Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#41

Post by analbeads »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #35
tomjakubowski wrote: post #3

> The prospect has business owners in the valley on edge. Patricia Pantoj runs a travel agency in Madera, north of Fresno, where the city’s approximately 60,000 residents are predominantly Latino and work in the fields. This year, she said, fewer people than ever before traveled back to their hometowns in Mexico. > “They didn’t want to risk it,” she said. “Everyone is scared, even if they have papers.” So policy whic…

That's been obvious from the start. Trump is going to destroy the Mexican economy so they're going to flood the States looking for work. NAFTA kept a lot more Mexicans out of the US than any wall ever will.

I'm sure scores of them will be getting past a heavily guarded border, dodging a rapidly expanding ICE, and getting employed when e-verify is required nationwide.

NAFTA caused the illegal immigration crises by destroying small farms in Mexico with heavily subsidized American corn.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#42

Post by patrickg_zill »

The "$20 head of lettuce" argument falls apart when you examine it critically.

Here is how I deduced that a $20/hour rate for farm labor, vs the assumed $8/hour rate paid now, would add no more than 5 cents per head of lettuce to the cost, and (assuming various middle-man markups in between farmer and supermarket) a retail difference of perhaps 25 cents.

1. Go to youtube, search for videos of modern lettuce farm operation. IIRC, I looked at the Iceberg Lettuce section of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxbJVqfIK1U

2. Count all workers you see working on the tractor-towed rig, figure each makes $8/hour. This gives you the total hourly labor rate (e.g. if there are 10 people = $80/hour).

3. Watch carefully and figure out the total time spent handling/processing 1 head of lettuce. Figure out the per-head cost, assuming the people are working 50 minutes per hour (bathroom breaks, tractor changing the wagon, etc.)

3b. Note that when it is stacked on the back of the truck, it is ready to ship to the supermarket; so there is no further labor needed aside from warehouse/trucking.

Now do the same per-head cost, assuming $20/hour labor (i.e. multiple by 2.5 the amount you got at $8/hour).

* There, now you have answered the question for yourself and you are not relying on my biased opinion. *

In my area a head of lettuce is about $2.50. Assuming the 25-cents increase, the cost for a head of lettuce would go up no more than 10%.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#43

Post by JackFr »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #14
guitarbill wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down. That's may or may not be true, and could be a combination of a) there aren't enough people around who would do the job even with minimum wage, e.g. depending on how attractive welfare is and b) it's…

> There's no easy solutions Capitalism has an easy solution. Labour shortage = raise wages.

> Capitalism has an easy solution. Labour shortage = raise wages.

Which will move the price of the agricultural products to uncompetitive levels, and the agricultural production will move to Mexico. So to the extent that it turns out the determinative input in the cost of fruits and vegetables is labor, the wages can flow to Mexican workers in Mexico or Mexican workers in the United States, and similarly profits can flow to the owners of land and capital in the United States or those in Mexico.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#44

Post by analbeads »

thebooktocome wrote: post #39
analbeads wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they're smart enough to hire illegals for cheaper labor, but somehow not smart enough to realize that Trump was completely serious when he said at every speech he gave that he planned to deport illegal immigrants? Does that not sound fishy to you?

Uh, no? People vote against their best interests all the time.

Ah yes, the "uneducated republicans voting against their self interest" meme.

What I'm saying is that you are reading propaganda. Enable showdead and scroll down if you want me to elaborate.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#45

Post by Inconel »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #9
verroq wrote: post #2

Wait these people that willingly hire illegal workers who are willing to work under minimum wage with little legal protection are worried their workers will be deported and will now have to pay higher wages? The farming subsidies is already ridiculous [1] for little farmers give back. Perhaps they should innovate instead being left behind, clearly the market is moving against them. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/u…

I don't think they work for less than minimum wage, nor do they hire them explicitly as illegal workers (instead, they turn a blind eye when their documentation doesn't line up). How many Americans dream of doing farm work? We have some of the best farmland in the world, but our workforce has mainly moved up the tech chain to more skilled and hence more valuable labor. It is a contradiction.

Disclaimer: Hugely unscientific personal anecdote incoming.

I worked on a farm in CA as a seasonal worker and I, along with a number of my fellow laborers, were paid below CA minimum wage, and I was actually authorized to work in the US. I don't know how widespread this is but I got the impression it wasn't exactly rare.

From comparing experiences with one of my closest friends who is the son of Mexican migrant farm workers in the Central Valley, we have concluded that some farm operators specifically seek out illegal workers, not so much because the hourly wage differential is so great, but because of added savings like insurance and not having to deal with OSHA violations. Farm work an be pretty injury inducing and having a group of workers who are too scared/desperate to report worker safety violations to OSHA can be a big benefit.

For the sake of not generalizing too much, I also know someone who runs a small farm and takes things like paying legal wages and overall worker safety and well being extremely seriously. And again, this is all anecdotal.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#46

Post by Buge »

guitarbill wrote: post #13
Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

They're idiots if they thought Trump wouldn't follow through on his pledge to deport illegal workers. However, it should be noted that protectionism will also help American farmers, as produce from Mexico will become more expensive. Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploita…

> Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down. That's may or may not be true, and could be a combination of a) there aren't enough people around who would do the job even with minimum wage, e.g. depending on how attractive welfare is and b) it's…

If no one is willing to work for minimum wage, then raise the wages. At some point, people will be willing to work.

This illustrates the point that illegal immigrants are bringing down wages.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#47

Post by fallinghawks »

analbeads wrote: post #36
BigChiefSmokem wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, these people are not stupid. They know exactly what they're doing when they hire undocumented workers.

So they're smart enough to hire illegals for cheaper labor, but somehow not smart enough to realize that Trump was completely serious when he said at every speech he gave that he planned to deport illegal immigrants? Does that not sound fishy to you?

Trump said a lot of things and flipflopped on several. And quite often when one votes for a candidate, you don't agree with them 100% on every issue anyway. It's pretty clear from #trumpregrets that a lot of people voted for him based on some stuff and hoped that he wouldn't follow through on other stuff.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#48

Post by Inconel »

guitarbill wrote: post #17
Mikeb85 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no easy solutions Capitalism has an easy solution. Labour shortage = raise wages.

Sorry, I edited the parent comment for brevity and changed it a bit. But my question is still who would pay for those wage raises? The people who buy the products? How do you think they'd react if fruit/vegetables were twice the price overnight? Would they say "yeah, that seems fair" or "fuck it, let's allow immigration"? Do they even earn enough money themselves to have the liberty to make that decision, if food was…

>How do you think they'd react if fruit/vegetables were twice the price overnight?

I don't mean to sound cheeky, and you make some good points, but perhaps US consumers would react to higher prices by not throwing away huge portions of produce. I've seen figures that the US throws away ~50% of our produce.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#49

Post by dang »

analbeads wrote: post #44
thebooktocome wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no? People vote against their best interests all the time.

Ah yes, the "uneducated republicans voting against their self interest" meme. What I'm saying is that you are reading propaganda. Enable showdead and scroll down if you want me to elaborate.

It's an abuse of HN to use it primarily for political battle. That's not what this site is for. Since that's all you've done, we've banned this account.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#50

Post by dang »

BrailleHunting wrote: post #4

Falling in "love" while drunk on Fox News, InfoWars and CNN has a habit of leaving a hangover from hell, herpes and child-support payments the day after... although it and "light" domestic violence maybe decriminalized soon. Gotta keep up with our new BFFs, Russia, after all.

Please don't post any more unsubstantive comments.
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