Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 62 posts

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#11

Post by argigg »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

They're idiots if they thought Trump wouldn't follow through on his pledge to deport illegal workers. However, it should be noted that protectionism will also help American farmers, as produce from Mexico will become more expensive. Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploita…

It benefits people who eat food, by allowing more food to be produced for lower prices.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#12

Post by jlgaddis »

To me, this kinda sounds like the "realizations" after Brexit where all people these voted (in favor) and then, shortly afterwards, were basically like "Oh shit! What did we do!?".

For someone to be surprised -- today -- at President Trump's actions and attitudes regarding foreigners, well, I suppose they must have been asleep in the days preceding the election.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#13

Post by guitarbill »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

They're idiots if they thought Trump wouldn't follow through on his pledge to deport illegal workers. However, it should be noted that protectionism will also help American farmers, as produce from Mexico will become more expensive. Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploita…

> Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down.

That's may or may not be true, and could be a combination of a) there aren't enough people around who would do the job even with minimum wage, e.g. depending on how attractive welfare is and b) it's hard to legally immigrate. So the reality is - as usual - complicated. Let's assume somehow magically all illegal immigrants were deported or whatever. What do you think would happen in the short and long run? To e.g. fresh produce? Do you really think American workers would rush in, and the public would tolerate the higher prices?

There's no easy solutions, and many wrong ones that tackle symptoms but not the root cause.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#14

Post by Mikeb85 »

guitarbill wrote: post #13
Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

They're idiots if they thought Trump wouldn't follow through on his pledge to deport illegal workers. However, it should be noted that protectionism will also help American farmers, as produce from Mexico will become more expensive. Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploita…

> Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down. That's may or may not be true, and could be a combination of a) there aren't enough people around who would do the job even with minimum wage, e.g. depending on how attractive welfare is and b) it's…

> There's no easy solutions

Capitalism has an easy solution. Labour shortage = raise wages.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#15

Post by [deleted] »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #9
verroq wrote: post #2

Wait these people that willingly hire illegal workers who are willing to work under minimum wage with little legal protection are worried their workers will be deported and will now have to pay higher wages? The farming subsidies is already ridiculous [1] for little farmers give back. Perhaps they should innovate instead being left behind, clearly the market is moving against them. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/u…

I don't think they work for less than minimum wage, nor do they hire them explicitly as illegal workers (instead, they turn a blind eye when their documentation doesn't line up). How many Americans dream of doing farm work? We have some of the best farmland in the world, but our workforce has mainly moved up the tech chain to more skilled and hence more valuable labor. It is a contradiction.

[deleted]

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#16

Post by AnthonyMouse »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #7
Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

They're idiots if they thought Trump wouldn't follow through on his pledge to deport illegal workers. However, it should be noted that protectionism will also help American farmers, as produce from Mexico will become more expensive. Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploita…

Exactly. Yet if you make it illegal to hire a non-citizen and you have millions of laborers you create a black market of cheap labor for unsafe business practices. It's better to legalize and regulate something than to make it illegal. Make the minimum wage to hire a non-citizen the same $15/hour for a citizen and poof all the illegals now compete with the citizens at fair market rate.

The problem is granting citizenship to effectively anyone who wants it is not going to fly, but allowing millions of non-citizen workers would require the elimination of birthright citizenship for the same reason. And then you have a permanent underclass.

An actual solution might be to rework the way we do agricultural subsidies, to replace them with wage subsidies for agricultural workers. Then you only get the subsidy if you hire someone legally, which causes legal workers to out-compete the black market.

A UBI (which allows the elimination of the minimum wage) could do the same without the industry-specific treatment.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#17

Post by guitarbill »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #14
guitarbill wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should also add, allowing illegal immigrants to work benefits no one. Not American workers, not Mexican workers, no one. By bypassing labour laws and minimum wages, it allows for exploitation and also drives wages down. That's may or may not be true, and could be a combination of a) there aren't enough people around who would do the job even with minimum wage, e.g. depending on how attractive welfare is and b) it's…

> There's no easy solutions Capitalism has an easy solution. Labour shortage = raise wages.

Sorry, I edited the parent comment for brevity and changed it a bit. But my question is still who would pay for those wage raises? The people who buy the products? How do you think they'd react if fruit/vegetables were twice the price overnight? Would they say "yeah, that seems fair" or "fuck it, let's allow immigration"? Do they even earn enough money themselves to have the liberty to make that decision, if food was a lot more expensive?

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#18

Post by jelliclesfarm »

In California..in small farms 1-100 acres : Casual labour from in front of Home Depot parking lot won't work for less than $20-22/hour. Interns(they have to be taught. So for every 3-4 hours they work, a skilled farm labourer can do it in one hour..because the time you take to train them is the time when you are not working.) are paid from $10-12/hour. Knowledgeable farm workers(full time..reliable work..in the slightly non-urban areas..sometimes with housing/food) get paid about $12-15/hour. Automated farms is the future of local food.

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#19

Post by analbeads »

jlgaddis wrote: post #12

To me, this kinda sounds like the "realizations" after Brexit where all people these voted (in favor) and then, shortly afterwards, were basically like "Oh shit! What did we do!?". For someone to be surprised -- today -- at President Trump's actions and attitudes regarding foreigners, well, I suppose they must have been asleep in the days preceding the election.

It's blatant fake news trying to spread a narrative of regret to undermine confidence in the presidency. They did the exact same thing after Brexit.

To elaborate, when they aren't completely making things up or using actors pretending to be ordinary citizens, they decide what narrative they want to spin beforehand ("farmers regret voting for Trump because they will lose their illegal immigrant labor"), ask as many people as it takes until you find the one guy that was dumb enough to not see this coming, and ignore everyone else. Or you ask farmers what they think about Trump, get a nice long list of compliments and concerns, and only report the concerns so it looks like everyone is scared out of their minds.

This playbook is as old as journalism itself. Grade school manipulation, and people eat it up. "Trump supporters are idiots who don't understand the most blidingly obvious consequences of his policies. This makes me feel good about myself and reaffirms my biases. I need my daily hit of manufactured outrage to get through the day."

Re: California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

#20

Post by ftlio »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #9
verroq wrote: post #2

Wait these people that willingly hire illegal workers who are willing to work under minimum wage with little legal protection are worried their workers will be deported and will now have to pay higher wages? The farming subsidies is already ridiculous [1] for little farmers give back. Perhaps they should innovate instead being left behind, clearly the market is moving against them. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/u…

I don't think they work for less than minimum wage, nor do they hire them explicitly as illegal workers (instead, they turn a blind eye when their documentation doesn't line up). How many Americans dream of doing farm work? We have some of the best farmland in the world, but our workforce has mainly moved up the tech chain to more skilled and hence more valuable labor. It is a contradiction.

Yeah I think all of the subsidies are justified by the whole 'non starving populus' externalities even if it isn't an optimal solution.
Post reply on HN