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H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

economist.com

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Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#51

Post by heeen »

nottorp wrote: post #43

Isn't a H-1B a form of indentured servitude? As in, if you change jobs you lose your visa? If yes, you don't get the competent ones but the cheap ones who have no choice. The good ones work on their terms for whomever they please. Edit: combine that with kls's answer about incentives, and you see why this visa system isn't quite working.

you can "transfer" your visa although it is not called that officially. IIRC You have to file your petition with the new employer but you don't have to go through the lottery again

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#52

Post by l3m0ndr0p »

Eliminate the H-1B, it has been abused far too long. This system has displaced & discouraged many local USA based people from getting a decent job with future growth potential.

The lower cost labor is not any better, nor more talented than local homegrown talent.

Far too many US based companies have abused this and it needs to stop.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#53

Post by wz1000 »

adekok wrote: post #31
koolba wrote: post #30

What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, US…

something something democracy . The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale. Which the mostly are right now, but at least they have to pay lip service to the people. Once that's gone, the culture of the country will…

Most countries today will give you citizenship if you pay enough.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#54

Post by guitarbill »

koolba wrote: post #37
mac01021 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering things from the point of view of the immigrant, the current h1b system seems to me like the only route to immigration for a person who is not exceptionally skilled or wealthy or connected. So there are definitely people who would like to immigrate who would lose out if it became an auction. I'm not saying those people should necessarily be a major consideration, but you did say "everyone besides companies…

> Considering things from the point of view of the immigrant, the current h1b system seems to me like the only route to immigration for a person who is not exceptionally skilled or wealthy or connected. So there are definitely people who would like to immigrate who would lose out if it became an auction. Sure but the point isn't to provide a side door for immigration, it's supposed to be for filling short falls in la…

It's not necessarily just immigration. Many young people I know have moved countries for a few years to experience a new culture, climate or whatever whilst working there. Some stay, some don't. The US makes that really hard/impossible, especially if you want to stay. So what? Well, many visa arrangements are reciprocal...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#55

Post by adekok »

bjornsing wrote: post #46
adekok wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

something something democracy . The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale. Which the mostly are right now, but at least they have to pay lip service to the people. Once that's gone, the culture of the country will…

In the labor market I'd say we gave in to "more power to people who pay more" [1] quite some time ago, and rightly so. 1. Like e.g. employees, all other things equal, tend to work for the employer that pays better. That gives more power to employers that can pay more.

In a free labor market. The labor market inside the country is mostly free. People can move to where the jobs are.

The labor market for foreigners isn't free. There are restrictions in place to prevent foreign immigration.

If it's cheaper to import someone from India rather than Montana, is that OK? If so, why? If not, why not?

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#56

Post by heeen »

Swizec wrote: post #4
aaron-lebo wrote: post #3

Have there been attempts at pumping H1B money and similar efforts into schools? I've always wondered if we want minorities to code and we are worried about job loss in the US, why not stop dumping money into hiring foreigners and instead dump it into CS programs at community colleges? It would take some time before you could build up a domestic work force as talented as foreigners, but would it not solve several issu…

In Slovenia an engineer with 10 years of experience makes $24,000/year. In Silicon Valley an engineer with 0.5 years of experience makes $100,000/year. Gee, I wonder why businesses want to employ foreigners and why foreigners want to work for US companies. Hmmmmm

H1B applicants have to be paid prevailing wage, I wonder where the notion of cheap h1b workers comes from.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#57

Post by manarth »

kls wrote: post #32
planetjones wrote: post #21

Is this disagreeing with Blake Irvine. See https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02... This is the man who refers to H1B visas as genius visas. I have worked with many Indian outsourcing companies and while talented people do exist, calling their employees genius is wholly inaccurate (as would be calling most software devs in the Western world genius). I did laugh when I read irving's original pos…

The problem is the incentive system. I have never been known for my lack of directness and in given so, I used to work with an Indian developer who was very good at his job. So one day I just flat out asked him, I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers suck, his response floored me. Without missing a beat he responded, look it's a misaligned incentive system. When I go back to India the first questi…

I think pay is also a factor.

IT is listed as the third-best paying job in India [1]. In the USA, it's not even in the top 10 [2]. In the UK, it barely scrapes into the top 10, and that's for IT Directors [3].

In India, the pay is a great incentive for people who aren't necessarily interested in tech.

[1] http://www.chakreview.com/Education/Top-10-highest-paying-jo...

[2] http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/03/29/the-10-highes...

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/dec/02/highest-paid-j...

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#58

Post by humanrebar »

kls wrote: post #32
planetjones wrote: post #21

Is this disagreeing with Blake Irvine. See https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/02... This is the man who refers to H1B visas as genius visas. I have worked with many Indian outsourcing companies and while talented people do exist, calling their employees genius is wholly inaccurate (as would be calling most software devs in the Western world genius). I did laugh when I read irving's original pos…

The problem is the incentive system. I have never been known for my lack of directness and in given so, I used to work with an Indian developer who was very good at his job. So one day I just flat out asked him, I said Karthick why do a good portion of Indian developers suck, his response floored me. Without missing a beat he responded, look it's a misaligned incentive system. When I go back to India the first questi…

For what it's worth, maybe the U.S. would have better employment among young men if the "IT is in demand and steady work" meme found a place here.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#59

Post by rodionos »

guitarbill wrote: post #35
rodionos wrote: post #24

Number of H-1B visas issued for Indian citizens, 1997-2015: https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/1bc51064 Top H-1B countries: https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/04040e14

That's really useful data. As always with statistics, I've thought about what factors could influence the data. One is population, so the obvious thing would be to weight the number of visas issued (which should be proportional to the number of visas applied for if it's a lottery) with the population of that country, specifically the number of people with bachelor degrees or higher. But even with weights controlling…

That's a good point, obviously India and China have vastly larger populations and hence produce more STEM graduates than the other countries. If population and the number of graduates were the key factor, we would observe a similar trend across other visa types, in particular academic visas. This is not the case, it seems:

https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/2/ - J-1

https://apps.axibase.com/chartlab/6042ea50/3/ - F-1

J-1 is particularly interesting, where India is growing but lagging behind other countries.

Re: H-1B visas mainly go to Indian outsourcing firms

#60

Post by briandear »

adekok wrote: post #31
koolba wrote: post #30

What's the argument against using an auction for H1-B visas rather than a lottery? That'd maximize the tax collected from their salaries and ensure the salaries are on par with the going rate for said workers. Arguably it's in the interests of everyone besides companies trying to get cheaper labor via H1-B visas. The only counterpoint I've ever heard is " It's not fair for company XYZ in low cost of living Podunk, US…

something something democracy . The country is run (roughly) on something resembling democracy and equality. If, instead, the ethos changes to "more power to people who pay more", we give up any pretence at democracy. We might as well just advertise that politicians are for sale. Which the mostly are right now, but at least they have to pay lip service to the people. Once that's gone, the culture of the country will…

Ok democracy. Let's put H1 policy to a vote.

Democracy has nothing to do with equality of outcomes: it's about the representation of the citizens.

Why can't I easily get an oil exploration license but some multi-national can? I can't afford millions of dollars. But with a license, I'd have a scarce resource and could easily raise money to drill.

Why aren't radio frequency spectrums allocated by a lottery system? Why is surplus federal equipment sold at auction and not just sold to the first person that shows up?

Pricing is an excellent regulatory mechanism. It works -- until the system is gamed by the well-connected.

Making third Reich comparisons, even tangentially, seems like an unnecessary Godwin.

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