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Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

nytimes.com

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Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#91

Post by matt4077 »

gozur88 wrote: post #54
matt4077 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh, the thread is de-railing... I'm busy stopping friends from promoting conspiracy theories and Hitler comparisons left and far-left. Yet the fear voiced in the comment you're replying to doesn't seem to be completely unwarranted. One of the key principles of "democratic procedures" is that the courts have final say over all executive activities. It is obvious that this principle is centre to some of the recent twe…

It's not unreasonable for the president to push back when he thinks the courts are overstepping their bounds. That, I would argue, is part of his job. In this particular case it's pretty clear the president was well within the law, and he would be remiss if he didn't say anything. I wonder if the people who are now wailing and rending their garments were equally horrified when Obama scolded the Supreme Court in a Sta…

I wonder if you read the last line from my post, which addresses exactly that.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#92

Post by panic »

omegaworks wrote: post #82
r00fus wrote: post #2

Great news for fans of rail and Africans alike. Also: environment is happier. I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot. What's their secret?

Wanting to grow their geopolitical influence by winning hearts and minds. Wouldn't be surprised if China wasn't making this move for more influence in / around the Bab al-Mandab Strait - the narrow opening of the Red Sea into the Arabian Sea. It's formed by Yemen to the East and Djibouti to the west. This sea route is the fastest way from Europe to Asia. Tons of oil from the Middle East flows through here.

Exactly. It's a difference of will, not of resources. America could easily do all of this if our government and people cared.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#93

Post by mr_overalls »

averagewall wrote: post #76
tomcam wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- They give zero fucks about environmental impact

Environment? It's a desert, you can hardly break it worse than it already is. Also, it's Africa. Concern for the environment is a luxury for rich countries where the people already have a good quality of life and can put more effort into secondary effects like pollution/etc. Ultimately, humans are more important than the environment so where you can give a big boost to the former at a moderate cost to the latter, it…

Try holding your breath while you count your money, and see how long it takes you to start appreciating negative externalities.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#94

Post by privateprofile »

brdltbrncle wrote: post #85

It's not a totally rosy picture across the continent. In Kenya, Chinese infrastructure projects are hugely disruptive to local communities and wildlife and are poorly managed and implemented, seemingly providing short-term improvement but questionable over the long term. http://africanbusinessmagazine.com/region/east-africa/rising...

Agreed.

The only reason that you see these deals being made is because the Chinese government is interested in Africa's natural resources [1], Chinese companies are competitive in construction (not really rocket science, plus slave labour certainly provides a financial advantage [2] [3]) and government officials stand to personally make money, as nothing gets done in Africa if you don't "properly compensate" the right government officials [4] [5] (european companies know this too, but bribery is sligthly more constrained by their governments).

The end product is usually low quality, with roads cracking open as soon as rain pours, but the goal was not to provide infrastructure in the first place, so no one is remotely concerned about any benefits nor about the impact on local communities, public safety, wildlife or the environment. Guess what happens to anyone that tries to protest on behalf of these issues. [6]

These deals are rarely rosy for the general population, who will still lack water, sanitation, food, jobs and education. Even the few that managed to survive outside of city centers will see their basic livelyhood (cattle, farming) disrupted by these "developments".

PS: I've worked in Angola, Kenya and Nigeria.

[1] http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/201...

[3] https://jamhuri-news.com/how-china-contractors-drove-kenyan-...

[4] https://qz.com/513090/in-south-africa-corruption-is-a-public...

[5] http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000175560/eacc-arres...

[6] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-angola-protest-idUSKCN0X70...

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#95

Post by Zach_the_Lizard »

skybrian wrote: post #57
grardb wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read another comment on HN about this recently. Their explanation was that it's due (at least in part) to the high savings rate of the Chinese compared to the USA (and other countries, I guess)[1]. The idea is that when people are stashing their money into bank accounts, the banks have a lot more money to work with. For example, Americans will use their money to buy cars. The Chinese would save their money, and the…

I don't believe it's a lack of money. There's no shortage of investors looking to make money in the U.S, and we have very low interest rates. If people aren't investing, it's because they don't think they can make a profit. So I believe the real question is, why is it thought to be a money-loser? And somehow, Chinese investors seem not to care that much about profits? It's unclear how much of these is foolishness ver…

The US has laws against bribing foreign governments or officials. You can be punished in America for it, adding an extra layer of risk on top.

Considering this sort of corruption is required to do business in these places, it effectively bars Americans from competing.

The idea behind it is if we don't incentivize corruption, it will go away. Needless to say, it didn't work, as it takes only one person to spoil it. It's a prisoner's dilemma game where only some players get punished

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#96

Post by Zach_the_Lizard »

toast0 wrote: post #64
Gibbon1 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say exactly, but it's not crazy. But I doubt the difference is that large. Diesel engines for locomotives are likely 40% efficient before accounting for the motor-generator section. A modern a coal fired power plant might be 40-45% efficient. So probably the same based on raw thermal numbers. I suspect economically the electrification is a win. Also over the future it's possible to run the electrified trains…

An electric train may require less energy because it doesn't need to move the engine along the track.

It also doesn't need to move the fuel it needs, either. Plus if cleaner fuel becomes available, it can switch as soon as it's hooked to the grid.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#97

Post by mistersquid »

averagewall wrote: post #76
tomcam wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- They give zero fucks about environmental impact

Environment? It's a desert, you can hardly break it worse than it already is. Also, it's Africa. Concern for the environment is a luxury for rich countries where the people already have a good quality of life and can put more effort into secondary effects like pollution/etc. Ultimately, humans are more important than the environment so where you can give a big boost to the former at a moderate cost to the latter, it…

The African continent has deserts as well as millions of acres fertile land.

As with all ecosystems, deserts change over time. The fossil record shows, for example, that the Sahara desert once sustained aquatic animals and lush vegetation not present today.

It is environmentally prudent to avoid polluting all ecosystems whatever their appearance. Doing so ensures the longevity and continuation of all life on this planet, including that of humans.

EDIT: punctuation.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#98

Post by narak »

luckystartup wrote: post #74

Does this open up any investment or business opportunities? I feel like the shipping and railroad industry is enormous and impenetrable, but there must be some smaller opportunities in here. Even if it's something sort of intangible, like "increasing transparency and fighting corruption". Because you know some percentage of this money went into the wrong pockets. If you were just a programmer from a western country,…

> So I want to be where the growth is happening. How do I do that? Do I need millions of dollars before I can achieve anything? Should I learn Mandarin, Hindi, or Swahili? In the past, I would have had to visit some of these countries and talk to some local entrepreneurs. Now I can just do my own research, meet people online, and have Skype calls. There's really no need to travel in order to find opportunities.

I don't know anything about Africa or China, but I just spent 1 month backpacking through India doing exactly this: meeting local entrepreneurs (tech industry, non tech, small business, street vendors, etc) and meeting people and families from the north to the south. To really get an appreciation for a market, how the consumers in that market think, and the obvious problems and opportunities around you, you HAVE to go there and see it for yourself. I spent the previous 2-3 years keeping an eye on Indian development from the West, but the 4 weeks I was there eclipsed any prior learning I did. Go visit.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#99

Post by JoeAltmaier »

earthtolazlo wrote: post #3
r00fus wrote: post #2

Great news for fans of rail and Africans alike. Also: environment is happier. I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot. What's their secret?

What about the coal-fired plants cheerfully mentioned in the article strikes you as good for the environment?

What's the bar for ecological spending? They should use more expensive energy solutions than say America? Why? I'd criticize each American coal plant in turn, before turning to blame 3rd-world development.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#100

Post by mikeash »

averagewall wrote: post #76
tomcam wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- They give zero fucks about environmental impact

Environment? It's a desert, you can hardly break it worse than it already is. Also, it's Africa. Concern for the environment is a luxury for rich countries where the people already have a good quality of life and can put more effort into secondary effects like pollution/etc. Ultimately, humans are more important than the environment so where you can give a big boost to the former at a moderate cost to the latter, it…

Looks like mostly not-desert to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Ethiopia#/media/F...
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