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Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

nytimes.com

41–50 of 115 posts

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#41
post #2

Great news for fans of rail and Africans alike. Also: environment is happier. I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot. What's their secret?

– They can finance stuff like this on credit unchecked by ny public opposition to growing national debt

– Having started later than western countries, their public debt (41% GDP) is much lower

– High GDP growth rates further lower the effective burden of their debt

– They can act largely unencumbered by the historic debt of colonialism, while western countries face opposition both internally as well as locally in the project countries

– They have less qualms of working with some regimes with less-than-stellar records on human rights

– Lower regard for human rights means lower risk of political tensions between China and the host countries, which could otherwise endanger investments. Western countries, conversely, want to avoid a situation where they have to compromise on morals to protect their investments (c.f. China)

– China has a lot more experience with large infrastructure projects than any other country.

– China brings their own workers to these projects, which are paid far below any construction workers you could find anywhere in industrial countries

– The politics of China allow for "Grand Plans" and their quick approval. Democratic processes would almost certainly stop any such project in a western country because it's impossible to write a reliable business plan for them. These are bets made on a whim and to a certain degree driven by politics and emotions.

– Western democratic countries generally regard such projects to be the provenance of the market.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#42
post #26
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coal fired plant combined with an electric train and transmission losses is more efficient both energy and emissions-wise than the equivalent ICE engines to transport the same people.

I'd be curious to see the back-of-the-napkin math behind this.

The Tesla fans can probably give you the details -- although they're still a little wedded to cars. A coal plant can use filtering much more elaborate than anything a private vehicle can use, so reportedly a Prius (35 MPG) has about the same emissions as a Tesla fueled from an all-coal grid.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#43
post #2

Great news for fans of rail and Africans alike. Also: environment is happier. I'm just amazed at how China is moving forward where other countries (looking at you, USA) simply cannot. What's their secret?

My strong opinion on this. Their secret is trade, China manufactures, they build, they create, they need more raw material than ever and Africa has that. That's why they are in Africa, they are making these deals so they can get their raw materials. That's one. Second, China was "poor" not too long, it's fresh in their mind, they know how a poor place can just transform, and they see that possibility in Africa. Plent…

So Africa is China's California. Whoa. I hope this time around, the Africans aren't the Indians.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#44
post #35
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that's Trump's plan to MAGA. Get rid of all those pesky civil liberties and democratic procedures getting in the way of progress. /s

Except there's no actual indication he has any such intentions. I wish people on the left would recover from their hysterical election freakout.

Ahh, the thread is de-railing...

I'm busy stopping friends from promoting conspiracy theories and Hitler comparisons left and far-left. Yet the fear voiced in the comment you're replying to doesn't seem to be completely unwarranted.

One of the key principles of "democratic procedures" is that the courts have final say over all executive activities. It is obvious that this principle is centre to some of the recent tweets saying (paraphrasing from memory) "what has our country come to when a court can ". Note how the country hasn't changed a bit and there's a long history of the courts stopping various measures enacted in the name of security. To use an example from the other end of the spectrum: imagine "@prezObama: What is our country coming to when a judge can halt a National Security handgun ban and anyone, even with bad intentions, can walk around with a deadly weapon?".

Note that this isn't about the actual policy. It also isn't about complaining about a judge's decision. It's about the assumption in the statement that courts shouldn't have jurisdiction over such matters.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#45
post #26
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coal fired plant combined with an electric train and transmission losses is more efficient both energy and emissions-wise than the equivalent ICE engines to transport the same people.

I'd be curious to see the back-of-the-napkin math behind this.

Hard to say exactly, but it's not crazy. But I doubt the difference is that large.

Diesel engines for locomotives are likely 40% efficient before accounting for the motor-generator section. A modern a coal fired power plant might be 40-45% efficient. So probably the same based on raw thermal numbers.

I suspect economically the electrification is a win.

Also over the future it's possible to run the electrified trains on electric power from greener sources, like solar and wind. Where diesel would require a big upgrade.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#47
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be curious to see the back-of-the-napkin math behind this.

The Tesla fans can probably give you the details -- although they're still a little wedded to cars. A coal plant can use filtering much more elaborate than anything a private vehicle can use, so reportedly a Prius (35 MPG) has about the same emissions as a Tesla fueled from an all-coal grid.

I don't disagree with your general point (although I'll quibble a bit about non-carbon emissions; even heavily scrubbed coal emits a lot of heavy metals that aren't present in gasoline).

But what Prius only gets 35 MPG? Did you mean 53MPG? My old Prius with batteries that are getting long in the tooth still gets 40-45 MPG.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#48
post #39

"Empire of Dust" (1:15) follows a Chinese developer working in Africa. Interesting glimpse into local difficulties with culture and industry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M

i wonder how good this guy's chinese is.

edit: this guy speaks 4 very different languages - english, swahili, french, and chinese. that's quite impressive.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#49
post #24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because China is an export-oriented country. Now we can go into who provided credit for whom to build this railway track, I would assume (I can be wrong) it all involved a dizzying array of Chinese creditors and companies, from the steel, construction to the trains themselves. They are not building out of charity but the benefit their own companies. Lot of LatAm countries like Ecuador have taken Chinese credit when C…

> Lot of LatAm countries like Ecuador have taken Chinese credit when Commodity markets are hot, are now regretting their mistake. Ten years ago, the same was said about those same countries, except it was WMF loans, not Chinese loans.

Sure. Two things were true then, are true now and will be true ten years later (when India is making the loans?): First, the loans are not charity. Second, Argentina will end up defaulting on them.

Re: Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, with China’s Help

#50
post #48
post #39

"Empire of Dust" (1:15) follows a Chinese developer working in Africa. Interesting glimpse into local difficulties with culture and industry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M

i wonder how good this guy's chinese is. edit: this guy speaks 4 very different languages - english, swahili, french, and chinese. that's quite impressive.

Good enough for it to get... awkward...
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