Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#271

Post by Taek » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #32

educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

Embargoes and sanctions aren't often realized to be the tools of death that they are. People don't realize, but economic stress increases the mortality rate of a nation. Less money for hospitals, unexpected expenses, more stress overall (bad for health). I think it's something like 40,000 deaths per year for every percentage point of unemployment.

Economic warfare is murder all the same as gun and tank warfare. You cripple a nations ability to contribute to global society.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#272

Post by theincredulousk » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

Is there any realistic expectation that there be a news story for every airstrike?

I'm not saying we're always the "good guys", but every airstrike looks bad without any context. We never get all of the intelligence that goes into ordering an airstrike, so how are we supposed to make the same judgements about collateral damage, effect, etc.? How many other airstrikes happen flawlessly?

Aside from hindsight being 20/20, it is naive to assume that the public is capable of reviewing complex, difficult decisions about military action based on anecdotal information in a 1-page news article.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#273

Post by sophware » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 8:15 PM UTC

theincredulousk wrote: post #272

Is there any realistic expectation that there be a news story for every airstrike? I'm not saying we're always the "good guys", but every airstrike looks bad without any context. We never get all of the intelligence that goes into ordering an airstrike, so how are we supposed to make the same judgements about collateral damage, effect, etc.? How many other airstrikes happen flawlessly? Aside from hindsight being 20/2…

I think they mean unreported as in "not in the database," not "there was a news story."

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#274

Post by seppin » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 8:20 PM UTC

Ntrails wrote: post #131

educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?". I'll freely acknowledge his flaws but by Gods it felt good to see someone acknowledge the tricks of persp…

> I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?".

Yes "we" are. The west doesn't murder people for their politics or their opposition to people in power. This false equivalency only empowers aspirating dictators to act worse.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#275

Post by seppin » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 8:21 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #234

dcposch wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! He was shrugging off the use of murder as a political tool. America may be in a bad place right now, and we've done a lot of awful things in other people's countries. But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. Things can get a lot worse. Trump was express…

> He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! Morality doesn't exist along the left-right spectrum. Also, this is simply your perception. > But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. No, they magically commit suicide, get killed in a car crash, or get murdered in a botched robbery.

> No, they magically commit suicide, get killed in a car crash, or get murdered in a botched robbery.

In the west, name one.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#276

Post by seppin » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 8:22 PM UTC

binarray2000 wrote: post #186

educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

YES! But this bears question, why is that so? Why is the US empire (and the US oligarchy) so thirsty for war that it is willing (one could even argue: eager) to sacrifice lives, physical and psychical health of its people (soldiers)? Why is it not putting trillions into infrastructure, health, education instead of spending them to wage wars with nations which have not even thought to attack the US, let alone have don…

Oil is getting to the point where it's not even economically viable to pull from the ground, your old and tired conspiracy theories belong in the Bush years.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#277

Post by seppin » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 8:42 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #118

pqs wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, there is objective evil. ISIS is objective evil, for example. Russia or the USA are in the gray zone, where some of they actions are evil, some others are simply stupid, and some other have sense. So, I understand your point, everything is complex, but we should avoid losing our moral compass. Some evil is really evil. Edited: typos.

Define objective evil

specifically targeting and killing innocents to accomplish your political goals. ISIS, Russia, Assad, AQ or any other terrorist group, etc.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#278

Post by wamsachel » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 8:58 PM UTC

theincredulousk wrote: post #272

Is there any realistic expectation that there be a news story for every airstrike? I'm not saying we're always the "good guys", but every airstrike looks bad without any context. We never get all of the intelligence that goes into ordering an airstrike, so how are we supposed to make the same judgements about collateral damage, effect, etc.? How many other airstrikes happen flawlessly? Aside from hindsight being 20/2…

Spare me, there's nothing difficult about deciding whether or not to blow up hospitals and children. This mission is not about freeing people from terror and was never about that. Rather, quite the opposite, we are there to terrorize them into being profitable to the hegemony. The propaganda about minimizing casualties is to keep civilians protected from the atrocities that they are sponsoring.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#279

Post by cyberferret » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

wtbob wrote: post #205

linuxkerneldev wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was sh…

> Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. Vincennes believed it was shooting down an attacking Iranian fighter, not a passenger jet. It wasn't murder; it was an accident (due to faulty electronic data). We didn't give the skipper a medal for shooting down the plane; we gave him…

> Vincennes believed it was shooting down an attacking Iranian fighter

This was due to gross incompetence/negligence. This was a Ticonderoga class frigate equipped with the (then state of the art) Aegis weapons system [1] - capable of knocking down an Exocet missile out of the sky with a hose of lead.

From the linked article:

"The Aegis system was involved in a disaster in which USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988 resulting in 290 civilian deaths.

It was determined by a formal military investigation[17] that the Aegis system was completely operational and did not have any maintenance problems. The investigation ruled that if the commanding officer had relied on the complete tactical data displayed by the Aegis system the engagement might never have occurred. Additionally, psychological effects of the crew subconsciously manipulating the data to accord with a predefined scenario greatly contributed to the false identification."

Aside from the fact that the captain of the Vincennes was in Iranian waters (without authorisation - and which the US Navy lied about on formal reports), plus the reports of his rising aggression from colleagues working with him, should push this into a military disciplinary matter, along with demotion or discharge.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Combat_System

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#280

Post by RodericDay » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 10:55 PM UTC

seppin wrote: post #254

RodericDay wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In addition, we simply don't acknowledge what we've done. This is spot on, and the biggest difference between America and other countries which commit atrocities. America is allowed to forget. And it's not a trivial or minor difference at all. Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely in…

> Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely incomparable. This is a completely subjective statement. The US has slavery museums in its Washington DC, and it's a topic that is never far from public conscientiousness. Compare that to Brazil, who's slave trade dwarfed that of North American,…

The US has "slavery museums". You don't even name them. It's utterly incomparable to Auschwitz.

Then you go on to compare the USA to China, Russia, and Brazil. High standards.

Lastly, there's a lot to be said for 1984-style repression like in those three, and Brave New World-style repression like in America.

Even comedians have nice bits about how a lot of Americans can't even really place slavery well in a timeline, it's something that happened aeons ago and descendants should "stop complaining". The majority of americans treat the idea of slavery reparations like a joke.

America doesn't really try. It makes a good show of trying, though.