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Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

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Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#251

Post by exodust »

csallen wrote: post #32
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

And I bet Iranian commercial pilots always remembered to monitor civilian frequencies from that day forward. Lesson learned.

Prevention is better than the cure. Same with Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 shot down over eastern Ukraine in 2014. Very bad, Russia probably to blame, 298 fatalities. If only some common sense were applied prior to planning a flight route over a known conflict zone, the lives would have been spared.

Civil aviation is not exempt from negligence in these matters. In the case of the Malaysian Airlines flight, 16 military aircraft had been shot down in eastern Ukraine in the weeks prior to the commercial flight. In the report, Ukraine was also criticized for not closing its airspace to commercial traffic. Another hard lesson learned.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#252

Post by saganus »

DanBC wrote: post #90
jahnu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even sadder is with a few billion much of that uxo could be cleaned up but they struggle for basic funding to clear some each year. In my mind that displays there is little remorse for past actions.

Here' an example of landmine clearance in Cambodia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfNZoXr6rQ (From CmdrFred's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12187512#12190918 )

WOW.... that's some brass courage right there.

And to think there are so many of them buried around. It's just heart-breaking.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#253

Post by pyrale »

jameslk wrote: post #129
csallen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

> Honestly, I somewhat doubt a thread like this could make it to the top of HN at a time when most Americans aren't sleeping. Americans don't want to read this stuff. I completely agree with you, and I'm an American. To claim that Americans are the only ones that need to wake up is a bit disingenuous though. Perhaps we need a wakeup call from the outside. The nations that have allied with the US, or benefit from frie…

It is a bit dishonest to blame other nations for your failings. First because you make sure to harm them when they speak up (remember freedom fries ?), but also because you ignore their protests anyhow (e.g. your present message, when most of Europe is speaking up against your current pres).

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#254

Post by seppin »

RodericDay wrote: post #225
csallen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point isn't that the US is to blame for all the bad that happens in the world. There are plenty of places that are worse than we are. However, we act as if that absolves us of all wrongdoing, which is plainly absurd. I would like to counter that notion. In addition, we simply don't acknowledge what we've done. Our media won't report on it. I would like to see an end to this mass propaganda and willful ignorance. F…

> In addition, we simply don't acknowledge what we've done. This is spot on, and the biggest difference between America and other countries which commit atrocities. America is allowed to forget. And it's not a trivial or minor difference at all. Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely in…

> Americans barely even really reckon with slavery. Compare to Germans with Nazism. Where's the slavery Auschwitz? There are minor museums here and there but it's completely incomparable.

This is a completely subjective statement. The US has slavery museums in its Washington DC, and it's a topic that is never far from public conscientiousness.

Compare that to Brazil, who's slave trade dwarfed that of North American, no formal recognition or ongoing efforts.

Or Russia slowly and methodologically erasing the crimes of the Soviet union (and Stalin particularly) from public view.

Or China reintroducing Mao as a folk hero, a mass murderer on par with Stalin.

These are real omissions and cover ups. The US could be better, absolutely. But compared to others, it at least tries to reconcile their past with modern society.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#255

Post by refurb »

0xfeba wrote: post #239
avar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

> No, they [the US] rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure that they had stable governments & trading partners. Except we completely stiffed Russia, who without which we wouldn't have won WWII, at least not so easily. And then since things were peaceful we decided to make the USSR the enemy for then next 40 years, via the threat of "communism" spreading. And that led to Vietnam, Korea, etc., and all the military…

Wow. I would disagree enitrely about how the west treated Russia.

You're forgetting Stalin colluded with Hitler to split up Eastern Europe. That included murdering thousands of Polish officers who were a threat to Soviet rule. The only reason why Russia was fighting the Hitler was because he was double crossed.

Russia's threat to European democracy was clearly evident even before WW2 started.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#256

Post by 0xfeba »

refurb wrote: post #255
0xfeba wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, they [the US] rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure that they had stable governments & trading partners. Except we completely stiffed Russia, who without which we wouldn't have won WWII, at least not so easily. And then since things were peaceful we decided to make the USSR the enemy for then next 40 years, via the threat of "communism" spreading. And that led to Vietnam, Korea, etc., and all the military…

Wow. I would disagree enitrely about how the west treated Russia. You're forgetting Stalin colluded with Hitler to split up Eastern Europe. That included murdering thousands of Polish officers who were a threat to Soviet rule. The only reason why Russia was fighting the Hitler was because he was double crossed. Russia's threat to European democracy was clearly evident even before WW2 started.

> You're forgetting Stalin colluded with Hitler to split up Eastern Europe. That included murdering thousands of Polish officers who were a threat to Soviet rule. The only reason why Russia was fighting the Hitler was because he was double crossed.

Yes, but Khrushchev was in power for the majority of time right after the war and was like a total 180 from Stalin, who seemed to honestly want to improve relations.

But I suppose this is all hindsight.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#257

Post by brianwawok »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #145
DanBC wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here' an example of landmine clearance in Cambodia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfNZoXr6rQ (From CmdrFred's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12187512#12190918 )

Holy hell. Filming that takes guts. Doing the disarming is the next level of courage. I just wonder how much deaths did it cost them to get the knowledge and proficiency in clearing those mines.

I suspect by hand land-mine disarming has a very strong survivor bias...

I.e. you don't make it to week 2 of your job if you are clumsy

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#258

Post by willhslade »

vinceguidry wrote: post #193
wz1000 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't concerned with civilian casualties. Of course, it wouldn't go out of its way to inflict them, but it simply pays no regard to them, no matter what their scale. Look at US actions in Laos, Cambodia, and Libya for direct instances of this, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed because of US actions.

One could argue that the US has put a great deal of time, effort and R&D into saving civilian lives, through the drone program itself. The alternative to the drone program is a traditional military occupation, which would presumably have a much greater death toll, I don't have access to the research. Or, of course, simply not fighting the war at all. But it doesn't seem like that option is available.

Uh, what?

Drone strike target to civilian ratio is over 90%. The reason, and the only reason that the US went to drones is to reduce the cost of operations, with the additional benefit of reducing danger to US personnel. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone...

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#259

Post by exodust »

refurb wrote: post #248
csallen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

You're making the same mistake as the people you're chastizing. You're filtering this historical events through your own filter to create a good guy and bad guy. It's more complicated then that. I encourage you to dive into the details of Mossadegh's overthrow. Did the US and British encourage the coup? Sure. Was there significant opposition to his rule among Iranians? Definitely. I argue he would have been disposed…

I was going to say the same thing as your first point. Parent poster 'csallen' is embracing the exact behavior he/she objects to. There's apparently a clear line of good and evil, and csallen can tell us exactly where that like is. We wouldn't know because we're brainwashed zombies who get our information from the nightly news.

Since the internet, hopefully the average person is getting more information, and appreciates the depth of issues and history not to be so black and white on these matters.

With all this protesting about Trump, I was very surprised to hear him admit that America is no better than the "killers" like Putin. Has a president ever admitted to such a thing? He just comes out and says it. I'm surprised that didn't get talked about more.. perhaps it was.

"You think our country is so innocent?... A lot of Killers around believe me".

https://youtu.be/74DAI2hr9Kk?t=2m35s

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#260

Post by sjy »

wallace_f wrote: post #77
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Try to tell people why Eisenhower said "there was no reason to use that awful thing" (the atomic bomb) and that the greatest threat to America was the Military Industrial Complex. You could stay close to the facts, but still they'd think of you like some kind of conspiracy theorist because you don't agree with what they've been taught to believe. It is entirely within the realm of likely possibilities that our nation…

> It is entirely within the realm of likely possibilities that our national elections are a complete farce

Most ballots are not cast by direct electronic voting: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/08/on-election-...

US presidential elections are "fundamentally local," meaning that an overwhelming number of officials would have to be corrupted to rig them: https://www.wired.com/2016/10/wireds-totally-legit-guide-rig...

Electronic voting has its problems, but it is not plausible to suggest that the national elections are a complete farce.

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