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Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

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Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#191

Post by lambdadmitry »

maxvu wrote: post #127
js8 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that if altruism (helping others) is a rational thing to do, then it's not really altruism? I find that argument a little strange.

Altruism isn't "helping others", it's "helping others for others' sake". Other motivations muddy the selflessness.

I believe most people don't assume that US (or other country, for that matter) is "truly altruistic" in your definition. However, the US is the first world power to make positive-sum policies the basis of its foreign relations (starting from the Marshall Plan onwards). You are right that this is not "selflessness", but positive-sum is even better as it is a sustainable approach.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#192

Post by lambdadmitry »

saiya-jin wrote: post #178
js8 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't that the case here? US didn't expect anything in return other than side effects of Europe being stronger (which was an advantage for them as well).

to enforce future battlefield so war could potentially be fought only far, far away and enemy would weaken itself, and US would benefit in similar fashion as from WWII... I am sure there were many aspects considered for Marshall plan, some could probably be called altruistic, but many could be called selfish.

>some could probably be called altruistic, but many could be called selfish

This is a zero-sum mentality in a sense. There are deals that benefit both sides, so there is no sense in selfish/altruistic dichotomy. One can be both "selfish" and "good" by pursuing positive-sum deals.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#193

Post by vinceguidry »

wz1000 wrote: post #121
avar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous. Of course the comparison is ridiculous. That's my whole point. But this is the comparison the grandparent I'm replying to is making. I.e. that the U.S. bombs some countries while being concerned about civilian casualties, and terrorists respond with something like the 9/11 attacks where they're explicitly trying to inflict…

The US isn't concerned with civilian casualties. Of course, it wouldn't go out of its way to inflict them, but it simply pays no regard to them, no matter what their scale. Look at US actions in Laos, Cambodia, and Libya for direct instances of this, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed because of US actions.

One could argue that the US has put a great deal of time, effort and R&D into saving civilian lives, through the drone program itself. The alternative to the drone program is a traditional military occupation, which would presumably have a much greater death toll, I don't have access to the research.

Or, of course, simply not fighting the war at all. But it doesn't seem like that option is available.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#194

Post by jacobush »

jacobush wrote: post #138
bpodgursky wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current governments of Iraq and Afghanistan are reasonably democratically elected. The government of Iraq did, in fact, say "no" to the presence of US troops, which is why they all left: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from... The much smaller recent bolstering of US troops in Iraq was also by invitation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_I... Whether or not it wou…

I know they are, but come on... the US civil administrator ("Vice King") Paul Bremer sacked the Iraqi army and banned all Baath party members from jobs. Most publicly employed people of rank were members, that was just a necessity to keep the job. So, you destroy the security apparatus, leave almost a million weapons trained without an income for their families and sack most competent civil administrators. This was b…

By the way, that's a war crime. An occupier has the obligation to keep order. When the military was sacked, looting became widespread. The US forces had no orders to keep the peace, but just looked on. It's a miracle Iraq works at all today.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#196

Post by jacobush »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #69
megous wrote: post #26

Other thing that is massively underreported on much bigger scale than actual air strikes are civilian casualties. Presumably so that Americans, or Russians or whoever of the other N countries that bomb people regularly can justify killing thousands of civilians in middle east a year by mistake. It is not a mistake though, it's a calculated acceptable collateral murder where the government determines some acceptable r…

Don't forget that as far as body counts go, the USG defines "terrorists" as any male appearing to be of military age. There is no such thing as a dead civilian male in a strike zone.

Kill box

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#197

Post by baursak »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #18
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

The older I get the more interesting and sensible Chomsky gets. Until a few years ago I was perceiving him as boring and monotone and now I am seeing a fierce warrior of truth* holding language as his weapon. This 9 min. excerpt on propaganda terms in the Media is especially appropriate. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmoXze-Higc *I don't mean some objective truth out there but a viewpoint which is rooted in his very…

Same here. His speeches and books are indeed pretty monotonous, but his interviews are much better. "Understanding Power" is probably the best Chomsky book, and it wasn't written by Chomsky. It's just a collection of transcribed town-hall style meetings with Chomsky, and is truly eye opening.

Regarding media, I think this one is by far the best compilation of Chomsky excerpts, and I highly recommend watching it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPp69gKVe9o

The inevitable day of his death will be a huge loss to the world.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#198

Post by uighjughhh »

educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Reminds me that our president said that we are no so innocent. We are also killers. That he was defending Putin may not be relevant.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#199

Post by JackFr »

csallen wrote: post #32
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

>Or you've probably never heard of Iran Flight 655, where in 1988 a reckless US cruiser drifted into Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian commercial airplane in Iranian airspace. 290 fatalities, including women and children. 8th deadliest disaster in aviation history, nary a peep in the US media: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655. But they are the reckless terrorists to watch out for.

'Nary a peep in the US media'? Front page in the New York Times and Washington Post?

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/world/downing-flight-655-u...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/flight80...

I'm not sure what a would constitute 'a peep' for you.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#200

Post by johnflan »

csallen wrote: post #32
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

I think much of this 'freedom' has come from The USA's overly elevated global position coming out of WW2.

The USA prospered economically, scientifically and socially all while Western Europe was on its knees. The EU has been, in my eyes at least an attempt at rebalancing of Western Power.

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