Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

militarytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 322 posts

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#151

Post by Panoramix »

bpodgursky wrote: post #73
zumu wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do Afghanistan and Iraq really count given they were invaded and their governments replaced with puppet regimes? How could the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan ever afford to say 'no' to the US?

The current governments of Iraq and Afghanistan are reasonably democratically elected. The government of Iraq did, in fact, say "no" to the presence of US troops, which is why they all left: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from... The much smaller recent bolstering of US troops in Iraq was also by invitation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_I... Whether or not it wou…

> The current governments of Iraq and Afghanistan are reasonably democratically elected.

Not by any means. The US vetoed all candidates they didn't like. That's as un-democratic as it gets.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#152

Post by dcposch »

Ntrails wrote: post #131
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?". I'll freely acknowledge his flaws but by Gods it felt good to see someone acknowledge the tricks of persp…

He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy!

He was shrugging off the use of murder as a political tool.

America may be in a bad place right now, and we've done a lot of awful things in other people's countries. But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. Things can get a lot worse.

Trump was expressing admiration for Putin. The reporter incredulously reminded him that Putin has personally had his opponents killed (Litvenenko, etc).

Trump basically said "whatever, nbd, we do bad stuff too".

I predict ugly surprises.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#153

Post by Panoramix »

avar wrote: post #71
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Japan is a particularly bad example: Truman and congress wanted to destroy Japan, make an example out of it. Destroy all of their industry and infrastructure. Except general MacArthur, the de facto ruler of the area openly disobeyed (quite unprecedented). He decided to rebuild Japan, because it was painfully obvious that they could use an ally. If it was up to the US government, they would be all but rubble.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#154

Post by praxulus »

wz1000 wrote: post #121
avar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous. Of course the comparison is ridiculous. That's my whole point. But this is the comparison the grandparent I'm replying to is making. I.e. that the U.S. bombs some countries while being concerned about civilian casualties, and terrorists respond with something like the 9/11 attacks where they're explicitly trying to inflict…

The US isn't concerned with civilian casualties. Of course, it wouldn't go out of its way to inflict them, but it simply pays no regard to them, no matter what their scale. Look at US actions in Laos, Cambodia, and Libya for direct instances of this, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed because of US actions.

Yes, that explains why we carpet bombed cities in Iraq and Afghanistan to pacify them instead of sending soldiers to door to door.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#155

Post by Trundle »

linuxkerneldev wrote: post #56
cyberferret wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was living in South East Asia when the USS Vincennes incident took place, and it was widely reported there. But I do remember when I returned to Australia, hardly anybody knew about what had happened. That was my first introduction to 'curated news' by various countries. Of course, a few years later when the family of the Captain of the Vincennes was targeted in a failed car bomb attack, we heard a bit about this '…

> the USS Vincennes incident took place Summary for those who like me didn't know about the incident. Our guy shot down a passenger flight, murdering 290 human beings, we gave him a medal but we then paid USD$213,000 in blood money per passenger to Iran without ever admitting fault. " Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai. On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was sh…

Didn't know they gave that guy a medal. That's straight up sadistic.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#156

Post by nyxtom »

imron wrote: post #108
jcranmer wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i'm disappointed that i haven't seen a single member of the media or Democratic party establishment talk about Obama's expansion of the drone program. You must not read a lot of media then. Pretty much every source of media I read on a regular basis has commented about the drone assassination program, Obama's expansion of it, the questionable legality of it (particularly as it applies to US citizens), and generally…

Thought experiment - what is worse - a) expanding a drone program and killing thousands (including by the US's own admission 100+ innocent civilians, but probably many more given that the US classes all military aged men in a strike zone as 'combatants' regardless of whether they are actual combatants or not), or b) issuing a temporary visa ban to a large number of those countries actively being bombed by the above-m…

Seems like we now have the worst of both worlds now. A ruthless drone program, botched operations, and unnecessarily misguided bans.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#157

Post by wz1000 »

praxulus wrote: post #154
wz1000 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US isn't concerned with civilian casualties. Of course, it wouldn't go out of its way to inflict them, but it simply pays no regard to them, no matter what their scale. Look at US actions in Laos, Cambodia, and Libya for direct instances of this, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed because of US actions.

Yes, that explains why we carpet bombed cities in Iraq and Afghanistan to pacify them instead of sending soldiers to door to door.

Iraq has assets important to the functioning of the US and world economy. The war in Iraq and Afghanistan was also the first time there were major anti-war protests before US entry since WW1

If you want to talk about carpet bombing, look at what was done in the "Secret War" against approximately 5000 communist guerillas in Laos

http://i.imgur.com/wxYiyO0.gifv

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laotian_Civil_War

> US. aircraft dropped more ordnance on Laos than on all countries during World War II, leaving Laos with about 78 million pieces of UXO by the end of the war.[96]

> UXO remains dangerous to persons coming in contact, purposefully or accidentally, with bombs. Casualties in Laos from UXO are estimated at 12,000 since 1973. Thirty-three years after the last bomb was dropped and after decades of UXO clearance programs, 59 people were known to have been killed or injured by UXO in 2006.[97] So abundant are the remnants of bombs on the Plain of Jars that the collection and sale of scrap metal from bombs has been a major industry since the Civil War.[98] About 300 Laotians are killed or injured per year by UXO

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#158

Post by Ntrails »

dcposch wrote: post #152
Ntrails wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?". I'll freely acknowledge his flaws but by Gods it felt good to see someone acknowledge the tricks of persp…

He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy! He was shrugging off the use of murder as a political tool. America may be in a bad place right now, and we've done a lot of awful things in other people's countries. But unlike Russia, we are not at a point where our leaders simply "disappear" domestic political opponents and journalists. Things can get a lot worse. Trump was express…

> He's not making a humble, leftish point about our moral failures in foreign policy!

How is that point leftish in any way? The left are not defined by the idea that there is a moral good and a moral bad, and they want the moral good. Left good Right bad is one of the most infuriating assertions to see casually chucked into a sentence.

You're right, of course, that he wasn't trying to suggest that America should pay for it's sins or change it's attitude/foreign policy. I happily acknowledge that you think it's worse to murder high profile people in your own country compared to, say, exploding nobodies in a foreign one. I'll at least argue that the president being honest about them both being murder is pretty refreshing

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#159

Post by jonathanstrange »

Ntrails wrote: post #131
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

I saw a clip on the news recently of a reporter badgering Trump about his intent to create closer ties to Putin. "He's a murderer, he's killing innocent civillians", the reporter states as though this is particularly important. The President responded with something along the lines of "And we're so much better?". I'll freely acknowledge his flaws but by Gods it felt good to see someone acknowledge the tricks of persp…

No,Trump is just an apologist, probably because he's a sociopath himself.

The problem is that the democratic deficiencies and atrocities committed by the US are not really comparable to the democratic deficiencies of countries like Russia or China. They are based on entirely different history, motives and mindsets, and there is a fairly huge qualitative difference between them. The people who relativize them tend to play right into the hands of various propaganda machines and usually also commit a tu quoque fallacy.

To give an example, while many bad things about Trump can be said, it seems unlikely (at least, I hope so) that he's planning to poison political dissidents, while it's almost certain that Putin ordered exactly that. Interpol and Scotland Yard would still like to have a word with someone who is now sitting in the Duma.

Unless you think that Trump plans to poison someone or hire thugs from the underworld to assassinate reporters, there is no trick of perspective involved.

The problem is that pointing out other people's or countries' wrongdoings relativizes both and detracts from your own wrongdoings in public perception, while both remain as wrong as before from a moral point of view. It's never legitimate to reply to critique by pointing to someone else's flaws.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#160

Post by gizmo »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #18
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

The older I get the more interesting and sensible Chomsky gets. Until a few years ago I was perceiving him as boring and monotone and now I am seeing a fierce warrior of truth* holding language as his weapon. This 9 min. excerpt on propaganda terms in the Media is especially appropriate. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmoXze-Higc *I don't mean some objective truth out there but a viewpoint which is rooted in his very…

I think that Chomsky has to have a very bland delivery, because the same message delivered with a more impassioned style would make him seem unhinged by the casual observer.
Post reply on HN