Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

webkit.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 650 posts

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#401

Post by jolux »

sipos wrote: post #240
botverse wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO you are underestimating the leverage that Apple has given that macs are the tool of choice for most web developers. Apple is probably aware of this and this move looks like an anticipation.

Macs used to be popular with developers but, this has basically changed IMHO. Perhaps they are popular with web designers still but, developers seem to be using Macs no more than the rest of the population to me now. It is Apple's complete lack of support for them that has brought this about IMHO and, I think it will be the end of Apple in the (very) long run (it will be the end of them as anything other than a phone…

>Macs used to be popular with developers but, this has basically changed IMHO.

Hedging almost-baseless assertions about verifiable facts by calling them opinions does little to hide the fact that you can't prove this and know you can't. IMHO, Macs are still very popular with developers, and the reason hasn't changed: a great GUI and a *nix command line. I personally would use Linux before Windows though because I hate both the Windows GUI and the Windows command line but I only hate the Linux GUI and could probably adjust to xmonad quickly and possibly even gain productivity. Granted I suppose I could use "Bash on Ubuntu on Windows" if I absolutely had to, however I think that name itself is an adequate synecdoche for my issues with the OS as a whole.

For what it's worth I feel pretty well supported as a Rust and Haskell developer in the Mac ecosystem, and Microsoft will have to do a lot better than give me bash to make me switch. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition for my computer usage ;)

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#402

Post by jolux »

eddieh wrote: post #331
coldcode wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Vulcan so magical that everyone in this thread thinks it is the only choice?

Your question seems rhetorical, but here are my thoughts anyway... This is the new normal, coinciding with the death of expertise. The WebKit developers clearly are not working in a vacuum, if one bothers to read the blog post: > Our proposal has been received positively by our colleagues at other browser engines, GPU vendors, and framework developers. Not to mention that the WebKit developers are pretty much the for…

A voice of reason in a cacophony of wailing elephants.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#403

Post by jolux »

threeseed wrote: post #388
cwyers wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two major reasons: 1) Windows allows the GPU manufacturers to ship their own Vulkan support; AMD, Nvidia and Intel all do this, which covers 99.99999999999999% of all Windows machines where this is an issue. It's not as good as native support, but it's good enough. 2) Windows has over 90% market share on desktop. macOS has far, far less. It's a lot easier to get people to support your API when you have that kind of m…

Apple allows GPU manufacturers to ship their own Vulkan support as well. It's likely not worth the vendor's effort but still.

If they were, say, actively revoking the certs of people trying to do this then it would be a different question, but it seems like the answer is the same for why anything gaming-related works worse or doesn't work at all on macOS: most gamers use Windows.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#404

Post by hrjet »

om2 wrote: post #365
hrjet wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you proposing a new standard when you are still thinking about security?

Thoroughly solving the security problems will require more eyes on it than just ours. Which is why we're proposing a starting point for a standard, and a process to work on it, not an endpoint.

Thoroughly solving security problems would of course take time. But the parent comment asked a very high level question: How does the security of this new proposal compare to a client-server model such as that of OpenGL? One can simulate one model over another, but in that case, performance can suffer due to overheads. This sort of thing needs to be addressed at the outset, because graphics needs performance and the web needs security; neither can be compromised upon.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#405

Post by ioquatix »

lapfelix wrote: post #364
ioquatix wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for Apple... For the consumer? I don't think so. As a consumer, the mobile device market is a walled garden. Are apps compatible between platforms? Do you have control over your hardware? Can you choose what software you run on your own device?

> Are apps compatible between platforms That would be an awful experience for the consumers, UI/UX-wise.

It wouldn't need to be. The application could have different UI/UX models based on the expectations of the user.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#406

Post by EdSharkey »

om2 wrote: post #132
dman wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I have your attention - what can be done to improve the state of Vulkan and OpenGL on the mac - its the single biggest reason for me to ragequit the OSX platform every time I try to give it a shot.

I think you'll want to talk to Apple Developer Relations and see if they can put you in touch with the teams responsible for the GPU-level stuff. We as the browser team can't do much with this feedback.

Hi om2, this is completely off-topic, but I'm so intrigued that Safari devs are actually chatting openly about their product, I figured what the heck I'd ask something.

A few years ago, I tried my hand at making an HTML5 application using the apple-mobile-web-app-capable, apple-mobile-web-app-status-bar-style, apple-touch-icon-precomposed META tags and the apple-touch-startup-image LINK tag.

It was so slick how the iPhone put my webapp's icon on the home screen and had a very beautiful startup splash screen as well. It felt very native and I could feel Jobs' influence on the way that presented, especially because it reminded me of his original iPhone reveal where he hinted that one would write apps for the iPhone using HTML5 (this was prior to the appstore.)

Ultimately, I had to give up on offering my webapp as a homepage app because of differing behaviors of my page in application mode versus in Safari.

For one, if the user switched applications and switched away from my html5 application, it would fully unload. Whereas the same web page would only pause/suspend if safari lost focus (I assume this is iff there is enough memory to keep the tab alive/passivated, which is of course reasonable.)

I can't have my webpage unload/reload on focus changes because it's a single-page webapp and keeps a lot of transient state.

Second, if I recall correctly, there was some oddities about the browser chrome that differed between application mode and safari mode whereby you stole some extra screen real-estate in application mode with an opaque bar and I needed that space for my layout. This second issue I think would be already addressed because your devices post iPhone5 have larger screens.

It would be so neat if these limitations were lifted on HTML5 applications and I could offer it to my users! Are there new/recent improvements to the system that you can share with me? Are there any super secret toggles I might add to my meta tags to tell the iPhone to preserve my HTML5 app's context as aggressively as Safari?

Thanks for talking even though people here are dogging on your proposal!

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#407

Post by ioquatix »

Rusky wrote: post #311
ioquatix wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Vulkan IS designed for adversarial input. It deliberately provides a layer mechanism within the driver for validation of function calls. It's trivial to create your own layers and they can be used to validate EVERY entry point into the Vulkan driver.

Validation layers were created so drivers could remove checks to improve performance. And regardless, properly handling adversarial input is much more involved than just a validation layer.

> remove checks to improve performance

In addition to my other points, the Vulkan validation layers are objectively (and IMHO significantly) better for debugging than OpenGL ever was. It's not just to improve performance. The debugging and development experience is significantly improved.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#408

Post by ioquatix »

threeseed wrote: post #385
hota_mazi wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand and see some merit to your angle, but at the end of the day, I don't think Apple will be taken seriously in that area until they support Vulkan. Go ahead and do that, then we can talk about going up the stack and judging the API you're proposing (and let's be honest, it's really Metal-for-Javascript). Show some good will.

Apple will always be taken seriously since they are not just a major mobile vendor but the only vendor capable of getting any technology widely deployed. Your arguments are very reminiscent of the "Apple must adopt Flash" era. And as we've learn Apple was 100% right to dump that technology as it was simply a poor fit for mobile. I've seen nothing about Vulkan that indicates it has some inherent qualities that make it…

> I've seen nothing about Vulkan that indicates it has some inherent qualities that make it suitable as a Javascript API.

And you are qualified to make this assertion because?

It would make an awesome JavaScript API. It is well defined, well supported, well documented low level API for graphics. It would easily be exposed within JavaScript.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#409

Post by ioquatix »

corysama wrote: post #273
shmerl wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can simplify the design and reduce bloat if you don't need to address multiple APIs as backend.

To play devil's advocate: Isn't a big focus of web tech the goal of supporting multiple backends for everything? If a new platform wants to support WebGPU but not Vulkan (ex: XBone or PS4) it should be not just theoretically possible, but actively supported by the design of the Web spec.

Good point.

But, that's assuming that it's not possible to write a wrapper on top of DX (for Xbone) that proves a Vulkan API. It's already been shown to be possible to do something similar, with MoltenVK.

The ball would be in Microsoft's court for this one.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#410

Post by ioquatix »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #212
zbuttram wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people seem to be missing here is that based on available info it seems Microsoft isn't officially supporting Vulkan either. Sure Nvidia and AMD have released drivers for Windows that have Vulkan support, but we're talking about a web standard that would need to be implemented by browser makers and if Microsoft isn't going to use Vulkan, then what do they implement as the backing for this new standard in Edge? P…

> Microsoft isn't officially supporting Vulkan either It's Microsoft's lack of official support for OpenGL on Windows that leads to WebGL implementations using of ANGLE translation to Direct3D, rather than direct OpenGL, right? So I assume we'd have the same situation for a hypothetical WebVulkan. Yes, Vulkan would be available on Windows with the right drivers, but the browsers wouldn't want to use it.

I was under the impression that DX wasn't available out of the box either? That you'd need to install suitable drivers and a suitable runtime?
Post reply on HN