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Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

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Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#331

Post by eddieh »

coldcode wrote: post #243
NickGerleman wrote: post #9

"The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Metal from Apple, and Vulkan from the Khronos Group. While these technologies have similar design concepts, unfortunately none are available across all platforms." So Apple, the only company not supporting Vulkan on their platforms, is complaining that there isn't a cross-platform solution?

Why is Vulcan so magical that everyone in this thread thinks it is the only choice?

Your question seems rhetorical, but here are my thoughts anyway...

This is the new normal, coinciding with the death of expertise.

The WebKit developers clearly are not working in a vacuum, if one bothers to read the blog post:

> Our proposal has been received positively by our colleagues at other browser engines, GPU vendors, and framework developers.

Not to mention that the WebKit developers are pretty much the forefathers of all modern web tech. So the WebKit developers and their colleagues are the experts. And the expert consensus is the successor to WebGL will be something new, something that can be implemented in DirectX 12+, Metal, and Vulkan.

But all the non-experts have heard of Vulkan, and are armed with the simplistic notion that Vulkan is the "next generation of OpenGL". They erroneously conclude that WebGL's successor must also be a Vulkan based solution.

The non-experts will justify this belief with all manner of ridiculous conspiracy-esque conclusions to reinforce their bias. Like "Apple is trying to force the standard", "Apple wasted their time developing Metal", "Apple is a closed-source walled garden", "Apple is expensive". All of which is is essentially the tech version of "libtard" based arguments.

RIP expertise.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#332

Post by ioquatix »

Rusky wrote: post #311
ioquatix wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Vulkan IS designed for adversarial input. It deliberately provides a layer mechanism within the driver for validation of function calls. It's trivial to create your own layers and they can be used to validate EVERY entry point into the Vulkan driver.

Validation layers were created so drivers could remove checks to improve performance. And regardless, properly handling adversarial input is much more involved than just a validation layer.

Yes, you are right, but solving the problem of adversarial input is probably NP. A validation layer can intercept every API call and validate it. It's probably the best you can do. The nice thing about it, is that you could actually use it in many different contexts, since, you know, Vulkan makes it a standard feature of the driver.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#333

Post by MBCook »

saurik wrote: post #85
MBCook wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an iOS and MacOS user..... GOOD. I hate websites trying to give me notifications. I like that I don't get stupid prompts from mobile Safari about that kind of thing.

Instead you get "stupid prompts from mobile Safari" to install apps, which websites mostly do so they can send you push notifications: same prompts, even more annoying (as often the "carrot" is that some of the content or UI requires the app).

Honestly I don't see a lot of those anymore. Perhaps it's the ad blocker, perhaps it's the fact that they realized it doesn't work well, or perhaps I just don't go to sites that push it.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#334

Post by saurik »

MBCook wrote: post #296
ioquatix wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for Apple... For the consumer? I don't think so. As a consumer, the mobile device market is a walled garden. Are apps compatible between platforms? Do you have control over your hardware? Can you choose what software you run on your own device?

Consumers don't appear to be bothered by any of those missing freedoms.

Men in America also don't appear to be bothered by having been circumcised, but that is only due to their lack of knowledge and should not be used as evidence that "routine infant circumcision has worked out pretty well for health outcomes in America".

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#335

Post by ioquatix »

mrpippy wrote: post #178
guardiangod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else mentioned that they don't care about Nvidia and AMD both advocating for Vulkan because I'm personally not interested in the big desktop PCs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulkan_(API)#Compatibility In addition to Nvidia and AMD, Intel, Imagination Technologies, Qualcomm (!!!), and ARM support Vulkan. Hardware wise, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever.

Intel has only released beta/test drivers for Windows, and this was their statement as of August: The current Plan Of Record is that Intel® is not supporting Vulkan on Windows drivers. The drivers that were made available on Developer.com are intended for Vulkan developers. So, it is expected that some Vulkan drivers may not work for end users. Intel GPUs power at least 50% of Windows PCs, and I'd guess the number is…

Intel has (unofficially?) said they will deliver production quality Vulkan drivers for their iGPUs. https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/developing-games-and...

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#336

Post by intrasight »

MBCook wrote: post #330
intrasight wrote: post #313

If Apple has like 4% of the OS market and seems to be abandoning the desktop, why do we really care what Apple thinks?

Because of the fact they helped usher in the modern web with WebKit and they're the ones in charge of this very popular thing called iOS?

Everything I'm reading in this thread pertains to Mac OS, so I'm sticking with my assertion.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#337

Post by detaro »

tinus_hn wrote: post #96
whyileft wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://caniuse.com/#feat=notifications Every. single. other. browser. Including desktop Safari.

Except all the mobile browsers. Which makes sense since nobody wants notifications on their phone from a website.

> Which makes sense since nobody wants notifications on their phone from a website.

When the alternative is installing an app just for some simple notifications I temporarily want, hell yes I want that option. Let's hope PWAs get there and the browser vendors figure out good UI to deal with them.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#338

Post by monocasa »

mrpippy wrote: post #185
surfmike wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVIDIA and Intel both ship Vulkan drivers for Windows.

Intel ships beta/test drivers, and states they will not be supporting/distributing them as production-quality: The current Plan Of Record is that Intel® is not supporting Vulkan on Windows drivers. The drivers that were made available on Developer.com are intended for Vulkan developers. So, it is expected that some Vulkan drivers may not work for end users. https://communities.intel.com/thread/104380?start=30&tstart=…

They just don't want to commit to a timeline, but they plan on supporting Vulkan for end users (hence why they care enough to even put out a beta driver).

https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/developing-games-and...

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#340

Post by MBCook »

intrasight wrote: post #336
MBCook wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the fact they helped usher in the modern web with WebKit and they're the ones in charge of this very popular thing called iOS?

Everything I'm reading in this thread pertains to Mac OS, so I'm sticking with my assertion.

You mean people complaining about the lack of Vulcan on OS X?

I mean if we're only paying attention to desktops than this whole discussion is moot. Safari on the desktop has a pathetically small market share, Chrome and various versions of IE easily dominat it. There's no reason to think that even if we ended up with the equivalent of WebMetal that would seriously boost desktop Safari's market share.

iOS, especially given the rules around alternate browsers, is the reason this discussion is important at all. Those hundreds of millions of devices or where this may matter.

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