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The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

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Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#31

Post by alistairSH »

gman2345 wrote: post #25
icebraining wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of those solved crimes only a percentage reaches an actual conviction for the criminal. Well, that's literally true anywhere. Besides, a very high conviction rate indicates an unhealthy judicial system: http://www.economist.com/node/8680941

98% accused of the crime in US plead guilty.

That's not a good thing. It frequently comes down to...

Plead guilty to a misdemeanor and a few months behind bars.

Or, go to trial, face a felony charge, with increased risks to later life (felony = more jail-time, harder to find a job, etc).

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#33

Post by cwingrav »

gman2345 wrote: post #25
icebraining wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of those solved crimes only a percentage reaches an actual conviction for the criminal. Well, that's literally true anywhere. Besides, a very high conviction rate indicates an unhealthy judicial system: http://www.economist.com/node/8680941

98% accused of the crime in US plead guilty.

Because: sit in a cell for a year because you don't have $500 for bail... or plead guilty. New York recently took up legislation on this topic after someone spent over a year in jail because they felt innocent, and then killed them self.

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#34

Post by zoner »

Kaotique wrote: post #16
vkou wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many crimes are not solved. The crime solve rate is about 2-3% which means out of that small number of actual reported crimes only a marginal amounts get solved. How is this number different from other developed nations? > It's very common for judges to pass a community services punishment or an electronic ankle bracelet house arrest. If recidivism is low, how is that possibly not a positive?

I'm not saying it's a positive. But the fact that criminals are not put in jail but at home is a major contributor the emptiness of our jails. If people aren't in jail it doesn't mean there is no crime. Many crimes are committed by other Europeans and Dutch criminals who commit crimes in Germany across the border. For instance ramming or exploding ATMs in Germany by Dutch organised crime happens a lot. When looking a…

Completely agree. I lived in Hungary, where the crime rate is relatively low compared to the whole Europe. But you can't actually go to an open market without securing your pockets. Now I live in Scotland, which amongst the highest crime rate countries in Europe, but it feels much safer to walk through Glasgow than to walk through Budapest.

This is because every single small pickpocket is reported and usually caught. Not to mention crime definitions like "breach of peace", with cases like "shouting in public" or "pointed his finger on walker". Police would laugh on a reports about these in Hungary.

I didn't like Amsterdam (or what I have seen of it) though, same insecure feeling.

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#35

Post by Maarten88 »

rhapsodic wrote: post #30
Maarten88 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have very little confidence that reporting a crime will lead to the criminal getting caught I thought that way too, but it's not all bad. I was recently positively surprised when the police actually investigated a bike theft that I reported (online) and caught and prosecuted the thief! Court session is next month, I'm going and will take my daughter (who's bike it was) there to learn...

Please reply to your comment and let us know what the outcome is, if you remember too.

I'll do that.

I actually expect it to be disappointing. I have applied for damage compensation, but I would be very surprised to get anything back, to be frank. There will not be any jailtime for sure. Still, I've been surprised in this case already, so who knows.

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#36

Post by brianwawok »

Maarten88 wrote: post #24
Kaotique wrote: post #10

There are a couple reasons why there are so little people in jail in the Netherlands and not all are positive. Crime reporting rate has never been lower. People have very little confidence that reporting a crime will lead to the criminal getting caught or even convicted. Many crimes are not solved. The crime solve rate is about 2-3% which means out of that small number of actual reported crimes only a marginal amount…

> People have very little confidence that reporting a crime will lead to the criminal getting caught I thought that way too, but it's not all bad. I was recently positively surprised when the police actually investigated a bike theft that I reported (online) and caught and prosecuted the thief! Court session is next month, I'm going and will take my daughter (who's bike it was) there to learn...

> I'm going and will take my daughter (who's bike it was) there to learn...

Risky, as she may learn "The system doesn't care about me, and due to a small technical glitch will let a guilty person walk free"

Don't envy having to explain that one...

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#37

Post by ska »

pc86 wrote: post #21
xxs wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>It's very common for judges to pass a community services punishment or an electronic ankle bracelet house arrest. But that's a good thing unless you consider sending people to the mines and keep them locked behind bars for years a better alternative.

In the US at least, community service is typically only an option if: - It's your first offense - You more-or-less admit to the crime (not necessarily meaning you turned yourself in, but you didn't go through a trial while maintaining your innocence the whole time) - You are clearly remorseful - The crime is minor and non-violent - The odds are seen as low or very low that you'd do it again There are exceptions of co…

Fair or not, I'm not sure how much international support you'll find for the idea of US justice system as a model to follow.

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#38

Post by mercer »

Kaotique wrote: post #16
vkou wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many crimes are not solved. The crime solve rate is about 2-3% which means out of that small number of actual reported crimes only a marginal amounts get solved. How is this number different from other developed nations? > It's very common for judges to pass a community services punishment or an electronic ankle bracelet house arrest. If recidivism is low, how is that possibly not a positive?

I'm not saying it's a positive. But the fact that criminals are not put in jail but at home is a major contributor the emptiness of our jails. If people aren't in jail it doesn't mean there is no crime. Many crimes are committed by other Europeans and Dutch criminals who commit crimes in Germany across the border. For instance ramming or exploding ATMs in Germany by Dutch organised crime happens a lot. When looking a…

Could you elaborate what the big European picture is (with stats or arguments that you do find reliable)?

As it is, I'm skeptical. I've spent about half my life living outside of 'Western Europe' and much of the other half in Holland. My experience at least fits the statistics: Holland is one of the safest places I've ever lived, and I usually lived (and spent a chunk of my leisure time) in the 'bad parts of town'.

With a few tiny exceptions, there are very few areas I can think of that I would avoid at night at all cost, for example. I'd go anywhere in Amsterdam at any time of the night, including the bad parts. And many of my female friends, who I'd say more at risk in general, would say the same.

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#39

Post by ska »

gman2345 wrote: post #25
icebraining wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of those solved crimes only a percentage reaches an actual conviction for the criminal. Well, that's literally true anywhere. Besides, a very high conviction rate indicates an unhealthy judicial system: http://www.economist.com/node/8680941

98% accused of the crime in US plead guilty.

How many of those to the original crime though? I've read (this could be wrong) that plea bargaining has become endemic, which makes many of these statistics biased-to-useless.

Re: The Netherlands Closes Prisons Because It Doesn't Have Enough Prisoners

#40

Post by Retric »

vkou wrote: post #13
Kaotique wrote: post #10

There are a couple reasons why there are so little people in jail in the Netherlands and not all are positive. Crime reporting rate has never been lower. People have very little confidence that reporting a crime will lead to the criminal getting caught or even convicted. Many crimes are not solved. The crime solve rate is about 2-3% which means out of that small number of actual reported crimes only a marginal amount…

> Many crimes are not solved. The crime solve rate is about 2-3% which means out of that small number of actual reported crimes only a marginal amounts get solved. How is this number different from other developed nations? > It's very common for judges to pass a community services punishment or an electronic ankle bracelet house arrest. If recidivism is low, how is that possibly not a positive?

Depends on crime type. Criminals generally get caught because they commit a lot of crime not because the cops put a lot of effort into any one crime.

Consider speeding, on any given trip doing 25 over is unlikely to get caught. If you do 25 over on every trip then you will get caught. Sure, murder is investigated but many a drive by in the US goes unsolved.

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