Digital nomad communities are a new type of union. I'm starting to develop the network around me with this mindset (as I'm a digital nomad myself).
Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
131–140 of 153 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're right. Most developers could care less about anything that doesn't impact their daily working life. But I would argue that issues like wage suppression, security, and privacy have a huge impact on our work-life balance, income and the software we write. An organization of developers dedicated to collective bargaining would be able to support advocacy groups and give them teeth in their dealings with large mult…
No, I wouldn't agree. Collective bargaining organizations ("unions") are fundamentally designed to advocate for their members , not for peripheral issues in the industry (except where they directly impact members' work life balance, safety or compensation in a tangible way). Personally, I would not be willing to join a union because I don't see any benefits they could give me in return for my money. I'm quite happy b…
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Developers like most people are motivated by self-interest and have little motivation to see change in the status quo.
With regards to advocacy, it's much easier to cut a check to the EFF (or similar organizations) when your conscience is moved.
We as developers could careless about actually seeing meaningful results outside of the code we write and money we make.
That's what you're saying more or less?
I strongly disagree with your statement that collective bargaining isn't beneficial because at no point are the efforts of individuals more effective than that of a group. Only together is there change. The people's movements of the world have demonstrated that time and time again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_Unit...
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I wouldn't agree. Collective bargaining organizations ("unions") are fundamentally designed to advocate for their members , not for peripheral issues in the industry (except where they directly impact members' work life balance, safety or compensation in a tangible way). Personally, I would not be willing to join a union because I don't see any benefits they could give me in return for my money. I'm quite happy b…
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Developers like most people are motivated by self-interest and have little motivation to see change in the status quo. With regards to advocacy, it's much easier to cut a check to the EFF (or similar organizations) when your conscience is moved. We as developers could careless about actually seeing meaningful results outside of the code we write and money we make. That's what you're sa…
It is perhaps possible that you are misinterpreting dsacco. dsacco is mainly noting that unions are not designed to or particularly good at advancing the causes you have listed.
I may have missed it, but it is also possible that dsacco didn't opine on whether developers care about things that are greater than code.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#134quinequine: Would you please drop me a line via my mail (lukewm AT riseup DOT net). I'd love to start up a dialogue about this. It's been something that is interesting me a lot lately.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#135It's only a small subset of what you describe, and I wouldn't call it a union as such, but the WICG (https://wicg.io/) was created as a means to help developers organise and produce the Web standards they need, to somewhat counterbalance some of the influence of browser vendors.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#136Part of it is that unions are associated with blue-collar work and developers feel that they are "too white-collar" for that sort of thing. There's no collar boundary to unionization, of course, but there is a perception that there is.
Many professionals like lawyers and doctors may not have Unions, but have strong professional oranizations.
Right, just about every sort of engineers except "software engineer" (the way SV throws the title around) has ABET accreditation requirements, the Fundamentals of Engineering exam, the Professional Engineering exam in their field of work, the Engineer in Training work apprenticeship steps, and finally the Professional Engineer certification and the organization involvements and professional learning requirements to keep that certification current.
I've considered trying for a PE certification (now that there finally is a software engineering PE, which was not the case when I graduated) to get the "engineer" back into my title at my current job (which as a broader engineering firm that serves multiple disciplines has an absolute requirement for a PE to claim the title), but getting the certification wouldn't really help me much in the industry anywhere else, so it doesn't seem worth it.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many professionals like lawyers and doctors may not have Unions, but have strong professional oranizations.
Lawyers and doctors require a extensive examination and continuing education requirements in order to get and keep their accreditation in their professional organizations. Developers, as a group, are unlikely to support such a professional organization because many of them got their expertise in non-traditional / unconventional ways and would fear being excluded.
Which leads back to unions as the next best fit. If developers and the software industry don't want to deal with professional organizations and professional certifications then unions are the next best option for collective action.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
No offense, because this isn't directed at you specifically, but developers on Upwork selling themselves short are doing so because they lack the social skills necessary to thrive in a freelance environment. There are so many business opportunities to build quality software for a very steep price it's incredible. But developers can have a pretty hard time understanding how to sell themselves.
Well, what if the union was more of a supplier of Benefits if contract worker (Group healthcare plan, dental, vision), had a lawyer on staff to checkout contracts to make sure they're up and up for freelancers, helped encourage companies to raise incomes for devs across the board, and also had a marketing team/sales team dedicated to helping freelancers who are primarily introvert sell their skills for the top dollar…
You are describing consulting.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
No offense, because this isn't directed at you specifically, but developers on Upwork selling themselves short are doing so because they lack the social skills necessary to thrive in a freelance environment. There are so many business opportunities to build quality software for a very steep price it's incredible. But developers can have a pretty hard time understanding how to sell themselves.
Could you point to these opportunities? One concrete opportunity. Please and thank you.
http://meetups.com
Networking.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#140Because things are good now. Developers are making decent salaries. In most cases far better than their friends who chose other career paths. But I don't think it will always be this way. With the rise of bootcamps and the influx of new developers we're going to see over the next 15 years, thanks to all of today's kids learning to code, I think developers are at serious risk of becoming commoditized. I see a future w…
Yeah.
It was a really sad day when they started teaching English and Math to elementary school kids.
Kids today are just punching out novels and theorems like there is no tomorrow...