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Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#71

Post by 6t6t6t6 »

mrmaximus wrote: post #21

"Why am I getting reprimanded?" "Because you ran a unit test..." "What is wrong with that?" "It's Brian's job to press that key, not yours. You violated Union rules"

- "Hi, we decided to change the terms of your contract and you have to sign this document right now... or else."

- "Sorry, I need to talk with he Union first to see what my options."

- "Hi, we decided that you need to come to work all the weekends in March and we still have to decide if we will pay for the overtime and how much".

- "Mmm... Well, let me ask the Union, but I think that this is not going to happen... I actually had lots of plans for the weekends in March."

- "Hi, you are fired. Not because you are a bad professional but because you ask too many questions and because you don't show yourself submissive in front of me".

- "Mmm... I am afraid that you will need to have a long conversation with the lawyers of the Union first".

That's what Unions are for in many countries.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#72

Post by [deleted] »

quinequine wrote: post #7
fiedzia wrote: post #5

> Why don't developers unionize? They don't need to. For any combination of those goals, you can find some company that aligns with them, so just go there. It may not be google or facebook, but you have choice.

You're right. Most developers don't care about these sort of issues. No need to unionize if you don't care about effecting change. And when you do, just send a donation and call it a day.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#73

Post by scarface74 »

quinequine wrote: post #4
gigatexal wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leveraged into poverty? Developer salaries range from 50-65k starting to 250k plus. Then there's freelancing.

Depends on where you're at, right? You'll find tons of developers on Upwork willing to work for less. Isn't that the future for most of us? We're tomorrow's factory workers. Corporations have already shown that they'll work to suppress wages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The long game is to promote STEM fields and increase supply - pushing down wages and benefits.

I'm not competing with people who are willing to work for only $10 an hour on Upwork. There are plenty of opportunities for people who are skilled architects, and real engineers.

Worse case, if I were either just starting in the industry or wanted to learn a new technology, I might take one or two low paying jobs to get practice and build a portfolio but that would be about it.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#74

Post by scarface74 »

kukac wrote: post #50
shams93 wrote: post #2

If it wasn't for Steve Jobs we might have agents like Hollywood actors. To me the real question is why don't we have agents like actors and basketball players? We could be like actors and have both a union and our own agents. But thanks to Jobs conspiring to hold back engineer income we have a situation where we are often leveraged into poverty.

Why would developers need agents? Hollywood actors earn orders of magnitude more than your average 10X-er developer.

Actually, a good recruiter can serve the role of an agent. They will look for opportunities for you because it's in their own best interest. But just like an athlete, you have to be smart enough not to get taken advantage of.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#75

Post by lap42 »

gigatexal wrote: post #3
shams93 wrote: post #2

If it wasn't for Steve Jobs we might have agents like Hollywood actors. To me the real question is why don't we have agents like actors and basketball players? We could be like actors and have both a union and our own agents. But thanks to Jobs conspiring to hold back engineer income we have a situation where we are often leveraged into poverty.

Leveraged into poverty? Developer salaries range from 50-65k starting to 250k plus. Then there's freelancing.

Then there's create your own software company.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#76

Post by dpark »

gigatexal wrote: post #63
meddlepal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a quota on doctors why not on engineers? We're already OK with the former.

Got a link to that quota on doctors?

There is no formal quota on doctors but the number of residencies limits the number of doctors that can actually get licensed. I've seen it argued that this is intentionally restricted to limit the number of doctors entering the field.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#77

Post by tacostakohashi »

NoPiece wrote: post #47
wattt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow you and I live in alternate universes. In my experience, and having been without work at various times, and freelancing... I believe developers are scarce. You need an aptitude and some (self?) training to take part and a lot of people can't be bothered. That being said, I see you describe yourself as a "pinko commie" and as a business owner who was at one time a union administrator in a past life I would never h…

Good developers are scarce, bad ones aren't.

I think this is probably the crux of why organizing isn't appealing for developers / tech workers.

There is huge disparity and in worker skill levels, productivity and salaries. Lots of mediocre developers on, say $60,000, but also lots of guys on $150,000 and up, with pretty different concerns (e.g., maybe the guy on $200,000 can live with a few late nights).

Pretty different from, say, auto workers or bus drivers where you have thousands of staff at the same skill and salary level, with the same interests and concerns.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#78

Post by gremlinsinc »

One thing I would like is a specifically 'contractor' umbrella corp/union hybrid--you work for the corporation... but you VOTE on how much the CEO/Board can take home - and you pay dues/etc.. to be officially an employee on paper only -- so that the umbrella corp can collectively bargain for decent healthcare/dental/etc --and other benefits AND -- say you just started contracting 6 months ago...well you have to wait 2 years to get a mortgage.. if you're an employee that wait time is only 6 months.. and probably other benefits of being an 'employee'...

You could sync it up w/ your bank account so it'll have a paystub record that takes your contractor earnings and puts all that as payments..or something not sure on legalities or specifics but having just started working from as a self-employed contractor and my wife just getting laid off finding getting mortgages and healthcare is a PAIN IN THE ASS!

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#79

Post by gremlinsinc »

nightski wrote: post #17
quinequine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you're at, right? You'll find tons of developers on Upwork willing to work for less. Isn't that the future for most of us? We're tomorrow's factory workers. Corporations have already shown that they'll work to suppress wages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The long game is to promote STEM fields and increase supply - pushing down wages and benefits.

No offense, because this isn't directed at you specifically, but developers on Upwork selling themselves short are doing so because they lack the social skills necessary to thrive in a freelance environment. There are so many business opportunities to build quality software for a very steep price it's incredible. But developers can have a pretty hard time understanding how to sell themselves.

Well, what if the union was more of a supplier of Benefits if contract worker (Group healthcare plan, dental, vision), had a lawyer on staff to checkout contracts to make sure they're up and up for freelancers, helped encourage companies to raise incomes for devs across the board, and also had a marketing team/sales team dedicated to helping freelancers who are primarily introvert sell their skills for the top dollar...though -- you could work for an outfit like Topcoders which does do a lot of these types of things..

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#80

Post by jones1618 »

Developers like to think they are above blue collar concerns but I've witnessed or heard first-person accounts of workplace abuses for otherwise "privileged" developers. Although we have marketable skills and relative "career security", that doesn't make switching jobs any less disruptive for our career path, our families, health plans, stress levels, etc.

So, I like your idea of a developer's union with emphasis on professional standards, EFF principles, etc. It would also be a powerful ally for responding to workplace abuses I've seen such as: 1) excessive, mandatory work hours. I know game developers that are required to work 60-80 hour work weeks and sleep at their desks. 2) outsourcing abuse: Having to manage and train offshore "resources" who become your replacement. 3) Keep-a-good-engineer down syndrome. Organizationally suppressing engineers from advancing so they stay in essential, non-executive roles.

And, if you think that your cushy job is immune to these problems, consider that I've seen nearly every one of these conditions arise (usually after a management change) in otherwise humane companies with positive corporate cultures.

While a union might not prevent every individual abuse, it might provide a check on companies who essentially hold your "cushy job" for ransom while they take advantage of the fact that you are salaried (not paid hourly) and can work from home any day or night.

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