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FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

theintercept.com

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Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#271

Post by jordanb »

drawkbox wrote: post #28

Protesting peacefully is an American right, this will be a list of real patriots. However, this is a bit scary. Corporations have become the brownshirts and we are inching towards a one-party authoritarian system like China it seems. Unfortunately the divide and conquer strategy of the two party system in the US makes people honor party over country and this is a problem. The only solution is to be more independent.…

> Corporations have become the brownshirts and we are inching towards a one-party authoritarian system like China it seems.

This is a really interesting observation. I don't think there's a direct analog between brownshirts and corporations because the former were just thugs who Hitler discarded when they were no longer useful. Currently I think the corporations are in charge, at least of the "centrist" core of each party.

We've had a huge, laudable improvement in the rights of marginalized people in the past few decades. This has been happening substantially because many corporations and corporate elite have been supporters.

But I can't help but see this support as at least partially self serving, because improvements in social justice help keep the "culture wars" alive, dividing the population up almost 50/50 into red team and blue team along social rather than economic or class lines.

Right now we have a president who won his election by campaigning against the corporate establishment, but who is also a fully paid up member of that establishment.

He's now picking fights with the very federal bureaucracy he's supposed to lead, as well as the judiciary and many well connected corporations. How it all plays out is something I can't even begin to guess but it's not something the establishment planned for or wanted.

But getting back to your original statement about brownshirts. I think that absolutely we are increasingly developing a system where corporations and the government work together to monitor dissent and then corporations form the enforcement arm of this apparatus (to the extent that dissenters can't be brought up on charges) by denying their economic livelihood.

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#272

Post by itsjohncena »

jrs95 wrote: post #267
itsjohncena wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you're reaching this conclusion from reading that we imprison more black men than ever and that the numbers are even higher than slavery numbers. More reading on the astonishing and completely demoralising statistics on "missing" black men in society: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/20/upshot/missin... 13th on Netflix also lays out a persuasive point about free labour in prisons benefitin…

There are about 10x as many African Americans now as there were then, and the vast majority at the time were slaves.

I feel you, but ultimately I think you're trying to make our still dystopian present easier to swallow, which is understandable.

I really like how 13th on Netflix repeated a simple but devastating stat: the US has 5% of the world's population, but it imprisons 25% of the world's prisoners, with 40% of them being black men.

With most of those black prisoners doing free labour while having their wealth, power, and freedom stripped due to their imprisonment, it really doesn't feel any different than it's ever been. It's just hidden from the public now.

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#273

Post by anigbrowl »

pvg wrote: post #245
anigbrowl wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they did, read a history book. As for the more kinetic style of fascism, I refer you to the student show at a protest at the University of Washington about 10 days ago: http://q13fox.com/2017/01/24/shooter-sent-facebook-message-t...

Are you telling me to read a history book? That's in the 'did you read the article' category of rude. The OP claim is utter hyperbole. The thing you linked is titled "Shooter sent Facebook message". How was the government involved in this? Edit: I'll try to put it more clearly. Fascism is a real thing that really happened and killed real people. Claiming it as your own over some stupid shit that does neither and you…

Yes, I'm telling you to read a history book. Fascists in Germany and Italy frequently promulgated policies designed to keep people in line by bureaucratic means, such as threatening their job security, in addition to various forms of physical violence. The most comprehensive book that I always recommend to people is William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third reich.. I feel it's entirely appropriate to make this observation int eh context of discussing whether someone's job can be jeopardized by their participation in lawful political activity.

When you ask 'how was the government involved in this', you appear to be claiming that fascism can only manifest through the machinery of government. But this is a nonsensical claim, given the historical existence of fascist political parties that later gained governmental power.

I am certainly not claiming that the shooter in Washington was an agent of a fascist government. But he was certainly a participant in a fascist political movement.

Fascism is a real thing that really happened and killed real people.

And it's a real thing that is happening again and is killing real people right now, even if you are not willing to label it as such. I've been monitoring the extreme right for about 15 years now, so this isn't some hasty conclusion I jumped to after reading an op-ed or listening to some talking head on TV; nor am I a member of any political or social group where like-minded people regularly reinforce each others' views.

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#274

Post by itsjohncena »

ihsw wrote: post #108
JohnTHaller wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get to conflate the handful of anarchists breaking windows and setting fires the night before with the 3m of us who marched peacefully during the Women's March, then we get to conflate all Trump voters with the literal nazis - as in "Sieg Heil", nazi salute, call themselves "nazis" - that voted for him and celebrated his victory. It's only fair. (And, yes, I'm saying that both of these things are a bad idea si…

It's not a handful -- show me a gathering of anti-government protestors and I'll show you a news report the following day of random acts of violence. This is a slippery slope and permitting this to happen without consequence is dangerous. Domestic terrorism is being normalized by a fifth column.

I like this challenge. I'll up it:

If anyone shows me an example of the US government in action, I'll show how the people, laws, policies, or circumstances involved were responsible for government-caused violence, oppression, and lies. I really don't understand how you're more willing to condemn activists for the bits of random acts of violence without a word toward our government that promotes and legalises the violence they use on people all over the world. Already in the last month Trump and Obama tag teamed to kill nearly an entire innocent family, including children: https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o...

As for your challenge, here's Portland Oregon police confirming one of the largest marches in the history of the most liberal city in America was "100% peaceful": https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/status/822958708980260864

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#275

Post by itsjohncena »

rdtsc wrote: post #158
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with a lot of this is that it's just a pretext. You have laws against blocking an ambulance, and there are legitimate reasons for that. But if what you're really after is to prohibit protesting and the thing being protested is near a hospital so you just go around arresting every protester you can find in the street for blocking an ambulance, that's a different situation.

> But if what you're really after is to prohibit protesting and the thing being protested is near a hospital It would seem it would be a good idea to just not organize a protest close to a hospital? Or have a more organized protest that would allow an ambulance to pass...

Can you show examples? This is feeling like a hypothetical you're using to dismiss political speech rather than a genuine concern. I don't doubt it's happened (I can think of a couple of anecdotal examples I've seen in person, as well as plenty of times we let cops through even though we were fully against them), but I also don't think you may have a respect for just how many peaceful protests block roads or buildings in this country every single day without major incidents. As someone else pointed out in this topic: the revolution isn't televised.

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#276

Post by mrlyc »

snowwrestler wrote: post #109
randywaterhouse wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've already lost when an arrest is equivalent to a conviction. Although, in some ways, we've been here for a while. Maybe less-so for individuals but for corporations, whom the law generally treats with a degree of "individual" rights (IANAL), it's long been that an indictment is worse than a conviction. After an indictment, clients turn away -> revenue flees -> shutters. What's scary is an indictment is, in theory…

> We've already lost when an arrest is equivalent to a conviction. It's not, under the law, of course. But since businesses can (generally) freely choose who to hire or fire, it is legal for them to ask employees about arrests and make decisions based on the answer. This is different, though, in that the federal government itself (the FBI) is assisting companies in doing this. The FBI is reporting arrests to business…

>> We've already lost when an arrest is equivalent to a conviction.

> It's not, under the law, of course.

It is under some circumstances. For example, the US visa waiver program:

> We do not recommend that travelers who have been arrested, even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction, attempt to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program.

(From https://uk.usembassy.gov/visas/visa-waiver-program/additiona...)

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#277

Post by anigbrowl »

cookiecaper wrote: post #240
anigbrowl wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, that's a BS argument in the age of FB and Palantir. Get real instead of ignoring the fact of technology. I have radical ideas about governance but 'shrink the state' is about as sensible as 'force people to be good.'

I'm not sure what FB and Palantir have to do with the size of the state. They're private companies. Yes, it's true that in light of new technology, "the state" or a reasonable facsimile thereof can wield a frightening amount of knowledge about not only your personal life, but the personal lives of all of your associates as well. However, that's just more reason to aggressively ensure that free markets are functioning…

I'm sorry for not expressing what I meant more clearly the first time. I'm saying that given the extensive and unprecedented reach of private actors like FB and so, shrinking the state is not by itself going to make people freer. Most of the state's activities consist of providing services of various kinds, most of which people want, and it is this that employs the bulk of federal workers, and it is by cutting services that politicos aim to achieve the shrinkage.

The notion that shrinking the state will make it too small to surveil the people just seems naive to me, in the light of private firms' ability to surveil the population for commercial ends. If the state is so small as not to be an effective political actor (qua the 'deep state' permanent bureaucracy), then what is to stop those private entities leveraging their existing knowledge to wield power unchecked? The courts function as arbiters within the private sector only insofar as their judgments are backed up by the power of the state; absent a capable state actor that can be politically delegated to the security of public goods, what restraints exist upon private actors to conduct themselves peaceably?

I'm not really up for a philosophical debate on the broader role of government today, but in general I feel that the belief that less government will bring about increased self-reliance and we'll return tot he ways of our forefathers is a mistaken one, and really suffers from the same faulty utopianism as the idea of an all-encompassing state. If there were some optimal public:private sector ratio, or some magic formula for defining the appropriate scope of government, wouldn't you expect to see societies that stumbled across it racing ahead of their less nimble competitors?

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#278

Post by CaptSpify »

glial wrote: post #264
CaptSpify wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm contributing skepticism. How many arrests statistically lead to convictions? I suspect it's high, but if it's not, then his statement is untrue. I also don't see how it's obvious that was his intent, as I obviously don't see it as meaning that.

Statistics has nothing to do with it. People should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. I am honestly shocked that this appears to be a controversial assertion.

> People should be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

How did what I say imply otherwise? I completely agree with that statement.

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#279

Post by AnthonyMouse »

rdtsc wrote: post #158
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with a lot of this is that it's just a pretext. You have laws against blocking an ambulance, and there are legitimate reasons for that. But if what you're really after is to prohibit protesting and the thing being protested is near a hospital so you just go around arresting every protester you can find in the street for blocking an ambulance, that's a different situation.

> But if what you're really after is to prohibit protesting and the thing being protested is near a hospital It would seem it would be a good idea to just not organize a protest close to a hospital? Or have a more organized protest that would allow an ambulance to pass...

> It would seem it would be a good idea to just not organize a protest close to a hospital? Or have a more organized protest that would allow an ambulance to pass...

That would be fine if there was exactly one law that could be used in this way, but there are a hundred thousand.

Re: FBI Is Building a Watchlist That Gives Companies Real Time Updates on Employees

#280

Post by 464192002d7fe1c »

dang wrote: post #235
464192002d7fe1c wrote: post #35

The difference is that the leaders (Linda Sarsour to name one) of things like the womens march are, to borrow a phrase from someone, deplorable people. By contrast, the people you're talking about on the right are properly and quietly marginalized. The right tell the deplorable people on their side to shut up and fuck off home, the left champion them and put them on stage (like the unrepentant child rapist Lena Dunha…

Overheated ideological rhetoric is destructive of the kind of discussion we're trying for on HN, and will eventually get your account banned. Please stop posting like this. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13570249 and marked it off-topic.

If pointing out that there are people out there celebrating child rapists and women who want to destroy female equality in the united states is a bannable offense on HN, please do so. I see no reason to stop pointing out facts because it makes the hive mind here uncomfortable.
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