The reason it hasn't happened is there isn't sufficient denial of self-interest for unionized interest to achieve critical mass to become a singular force to be reckoned with.
Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
101–110 of 153 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#102"Why am I getting reprimanded?" "Because you ran a unit test..." "What is wrong with that?" "It's Brian's job to press that key, not yours. You violated Union rules"
- "Hi, we decided to change the terms of your contract and you have to sign this document right now... or else." - "Sorry, I need to talk with he Union first to see what my options." - "Hi, we decided that you need to come to work all the weekends in March and we still have to decide if we will pay for the overtime and how much". - "Mmm... Well, let me ask the Union, but I think that this is not going to happen... I…
If you need a union to push back for you, well, sorry but most likely you're not keeping up with the average for your profession.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#103I can only speak for myself, but I will never join a union. It's a political thing for me. I know not everyone feels that way, but I also know that I'm not the only one strongly opposed to unionization.
I completely understand. How do you feel about collective bargaining in general? Consider a case where let's say the founder of an extremely successful yet 50 person software company sells the company for an ungodly sum ($250mil+) to Corporation X but as a part of that deal this founder doesn't provide any equity to 80% of his/her employees who helped build the company? What should they do then?
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
- "Hi, we decided to change the terms of your contract and you have to sign this document right now... or else." - "Sorry, I need to talk with he Union first to see what my options." - "Hi, we decided that you need to come to work all the weekends in March and we still have to decide if we will pay for the overtime and how much". - "Mmm... Well, let me ask the Union, but I think that this is not going to happen... I…
All of those response are incorrect. The correct answer is "I can call my network and have five offers inside of a month that pay me as much or more than I'm making here." If you need a union to push back for you, well, sorry but most likely you're not keeping up with the average for your profession.
If, instead, you're engaged in a collective labor action, your employer cannot retaliate by firing you.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wish you weren't being downvoted! If you join an organization that is union you should almost certainly join. Otherwise... You're a scab. That's how it goes. Sorry HN doesn't see reality.
Extortion is the only power a union can wield. We have a name for that kind of organization and it's a hell of a lot more damning than "scab".
[1] https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#106I can only speak for myself, but I will never join a union. It's a political thing for me. I know not everyone feels that way, but I also know that I'm not the only one strongly opposed to unionization.
I completely understand. How do you feel about collective bargaining in general? Consider a case where let's say the founder of an extremely successful yet 50 person software company sells the company for an ungodly sum ($250mil+) to Corporation X but as a part of that deal this founder doesn't provide any equity to 80% of his/her employees who helped build the company? What should they do then?
Call collective bargaining what it is, state-sanctioned extortion. "Give us X or we'll walk out. No, you can't hire a replacement either." Imagine if your auto mechanic or doctor or plumber could to this to you.
Not that it isn't necessarily justified; seeing the working conditions at, for example, Amazon's warehouses improved more than warrants it. But let's not pretend it's something it's not.
>...this founder doesn't provide any equity to 80% of his/her employees who helped build the company? What should they do then?
A talented, highly educated workforce of developers somehow collectively failed to read their employment contracts and understand the risks/rewards of their compensation? What they should all do is smack themselves on the forehead.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#107What could I expect to change in my daily working life by joining your "new model union"? Unions got buy-in from workers because they offered tangible benefits to workers. Shorter days, medical care, better pay, and so on. The items you list are public policy concerns that align well with a variety of advocacy groups. In virtually all cases, a specialist advocacy group seems better-suited to addressing the problem th…
You're right. Most developers could care less about anything that doesn't impact their daily working life. But I would argue that issues like wage suppression, security, and privacy have a huge impact on our work-life balance, income and the software we write. An organization of developers dedicated to collective bargaining would be able to support advocacy groups and give them teeth in their dealings with large mult…
I think most developers, if asked, do in fact care about security, privacy, standards, net neutrality, and open source software. The issue, I have found in my many conversations with developers, is not that developers do not care about the items you have listed. Most do! That the EFF and the FSF and similar groups continue to exist shows this.
The issue I see at hand is that unions need to look like a good deal for people to sign up. People need to expect to gain more for their dues and participation than they could gain on their own. If a union is going to send money to the EFF, and I can send money to the EFF myself without the administrative overhead of a union, what does the union gain me?
Think of it in business terms, as successful unionizers have always done. What unique value does your new model union offer that justifies the costs? You're asking people to make a major financial commitment to group together and advocate for themselves, but you're focusing almost exclusively on secondary issues.
It is not that a union could or could not do all the things you suggest. The issue I see is that a compelling case has not been made that a new model union is the best way to advance the causes we care about. Where's the return on investment in collective bargaining for us?
Also: I see that you created an account solely to have this conversation. Have you come to understand why developers don't unionize, or did you expect to convincingly advocate for unions of software engineering professionals?
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#108Part of it is that unions are associated with blue-collar work and developers feel that they are "too white-collar" for that sort of thing. There's no collar boundary to unionization, of course, but there is a perception that there is.
Many professionals like lawyers and doctors may not have Unions, but have strong professional oranizations.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
All of those response are incorrect. The correct answer is "I can call my network and have five offers inside of a month that pay me as much or more than I'm making here." If you need a union to push back for you, well, sorry but most likely you're not keeping up with the average for your profession.
Imagine that you're on an H1-B visa. If you utter the phrase you've suggested, you could be fired on the spot and have until the end on the day to leave the country. If, instead, you're engaged in a collective labor action, your employer cannot retaliate by firing you.
Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine that you're on an H1-B visa. If you utter the phrase you've suggested, you could be fired on the spot and have until the end on the day to leave the country. If, instead, you're engaged in a collective labor action, your employer cannot retaliate by firing you.
How about fixing the H1-B law instead?