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During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

smithsonianmag.com

181–190 of 215 posts

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#181
post #81

I like this article because it reminds us that "whiteness" is not actually a strictly racial identity. There are numerous factors that make someone "white" in America, which makes them acceptable to white nationalists. These purity rules can change over time to represent what's politically expedient. Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern Ame…

>Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern America)were once not only considered not "white", but were demonized even as much as other races that Europe has traditionally looked down on. This was parodied in the movie Blazing Saddles, set in the American wild west, with a quote that I'd be [edit: apparently not] banned for repeating verbatim.

I can't speak for the HN mods, but I am fine with seeing offensive words here when they are employed in a documentary rather than a pejorative sense.

Let's examine a few examples, using 'oompa-loompa' as an imaginary term of abuse. Shut up Alice, you're just an oompa-loompa! - not OK. Ignore Alice; she's a stupid oompa-loompa. - not OK. Bob denigrated Alice by referring to her as an 'oompa-loompa.' - OK.

It's not the specific words that are offensive, but the context in which they are employed. When you're reporting someone else's speech, it's OK to quote them accurately and in full - indeed I think it's often necessary. If we use euphemisms or bowdlerisms - such as saying 'the f-word' or 'f---' to avoid saying the word 'fuck' when reporting what someone said - the we are not only insulting the intelligence of our interlocutors, but we are softening the impact of the original statement. To do so out of a regard for the tender feelings of others is misplaced, because by implication we're saying that the offensive content inheres in the word rather than intention of the speaker, and the use of offensive words is easily dismissed nowadays by someone saying they 'misspoke'.

Let's take another example. Bob says to Alice: 'Your life is unimportant because you are only an oompa-loompa' in some public confrontation. Carol reports this on the evening news as 'bob said that Alice's life was not important, and employed an ethnic slur.' Technically true, but 'employed an ethnic slur' sounds pretty mild compared to the unpleasant experience of being called an oompa-loompa directly, or feeling empathy for someone subjected to such a term of abuse. By resorting to euphemism, the offensive nature of Bob's aggressive remarks towards Alice is significantly understated, which is a win for bob.

I think that when a public figure (qua someone whose utterances or actions are consequential because of their social reach) makes an offensive remarks such as 'You know what? fuck the oompa=loompas!' it should be reported verbatim on the evening news, not bleeped or euphemized. There's an argument that doing so spreads it and normalizes, it, and that is true to some extent. (There are increasingly common reports, albeit apocryphal, of school students excusing offensive or assaultive behavior by citing the President's well-documented model). But the unpleasantness of hearing that repeated and perpetuated has to be balanced against the value of people knowing exactly what was said and how it was said, so that the fact of offensive or assaultive behavior is not obscured to the end of deniability or dismissability.

Linguistic infantilization is but a prelude to cognitive manipulation, and the latter has reached pandemic proportions in an age of almost-instant global communication. The averred reluctance of some to be exposed to horrible words is really a plea not to be informed about the existence of horrible behavior, a preference for not knowing about the fact of conflict. Meaningful discourse on how we should behave is impossible if we cannot express ourselves honestly about how we do behave.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#182
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: the vast majority of North American terrorism is committed by white men. No other group since 9/11 has contributed more to terror than disgruntled white dudes in North America. Refugees are trying to escspe the same horrors you are describing. The situation is similar to the US turning away Jews under the banner of "America First" during WW2 because they feared Nazis sneaking in with the Jews. The "safe" co…

> No other group since 9/11 So no other group since the largest terrorist act in the history of the United States? If that's not a convenient choice in timing, I don't know what is.

Prior to 9/11, the all-time US terrorist record was the Oklahoma City bombing, by two white dudes. Divide out the number of deaths in each attack by the number of people directly involved in the attacks, and you reach comparable numbers.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#183

I like this article because it reminds us that "whiteness" is not actually a strictly racial identity. There are numerous factors that make someone "white" in America, which makes them acceptable to white nationalists. These purity rules can change over time to represent what's politically expedient. Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern Ame…

First, the article doesn't discuss 'whiteness', so your comment is something of an irrelevant narrative imposition. Second, it's intellectually dishonest to imply that this had anything to do with a malleable concept of race. Italy and the US were at war during WW2, and the additional scrutiny was very clearly based upon ancestral nationality, rather than ethnic, lines.

First, the article doesn't discuss 'whiteness'

Your argument is basically that if the word doesn't appear in the original article, we should be able to hold a discussion of that concept that refers to the article. There is a lot more to reading comprehension than iterating over a bag of words to see whether they appear in a given corpus.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#184
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many young Americans are shocked to learn that Italian and Irish (who are often a baseline of appearance in modern America)were once not only considered not "white", but were demonized even as much as other races that Europe has traditionally looked down on. This was parodied in the movie Blazing Saddles, set in the American wild west, with a quote that I'd be [edit: apparently not] banned for repeating verbatim.

This? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw "All right, we'll give some land to the niggers and the chinks... But we don't want the Irish!" It's a nice film, its director made quite a few good films ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Brooks#Film ).

Mel Brooks is probably our greatest American comedy director and writer, at least in the second half of the 20th century he's in the top handful. Who comes to mind, Blake Edwards?

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#185

Using this as a criticism of Trump's travel ban is a false equivalency. There have literally been a rash of terrorist attacks in Europe perpetrated by radicalized Syrians, Somalians, and Iranians. Not to mention the knife attack from Somalian refugee (who was getting a free ride) at Ohio State. Read through these lists and tell me there is nothing to be worried about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_i…

What travel ban should we enact to create common-sense protections in this country from the gathering toddler threat? In 2015, more people were shot by toddlers than by radical Islamist foreign nationals.

As a initial disclaimer, being European I'm totally in favour of gun control... which of course would solve all of these toddler's acidental killings and many of the mass shootings.

That being said, your argument is intellectually deceiving. Toddlers neither carry out acts of terrorism, neither they kill or hurt in the name of any ideology.

Terrorism by definition means to terrorise the population, not kill the greatest amount of people. Besides that, when you carry out a terrorist act in the name of some ideology, be that radical islam, white supremacy, national separatism, etc., society is called not to act upon the results of your actions but on the ideology committing the terrorist act itself. The answer to why toddlers accidentally kill people with guns is easy: they have guns available and they aren't old enough to understand what they are doing. But the answer to why do radical islamists or white supremacists kill people is all but simple.

Also as a final thought. Even inside terrorism there are degrees on morality. Sure it's bad to carry out terrorism even in the name of national identity and freedom (i.e. IRA, ETA), but at least you have a clear message on what are the terrorists' demands and how to stop it. Radical Islam (and others) don't even have these demands - unless the submission of all the western world to radical islam can be considered a valid demand.

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the article doesn't discuss 'whiteness', so your comment is something of an irrelevant narrative imposition. Second, it's intellectually dishonest to imply that this had anything to do with a malleable concept of race. Italy and the US were at war during WW2, and the additional scrutiny was very clearly based upon ancestral nationality, rather than ethnic, lines.

> First, the article doesn't discuss 'whiteness', so your comment is something of an irrelevant narrative imposition. It discusses "outsider" status, and WW2 represented a massive debate about who was "trustworthy." Historians have pointed out that in many cases these camp approaches were in part appeasement tactics for the rather large fascist movements growing in America. Hell, WW2 was the mark of the last unsucces…

> AND YET! Mysteriously! Japanese were specifically targeted for the harshest treatment, Italians the second most, and the fewest German Americans ended up in concentration camps.

Practically speaking, it would be difficult to round up all German-Americans and put them into concentration camps in WW2. They had basically interbred with other people with dissimilar European ancestry, did not retain any unique accent, or group themselves into ethnic communes.

Additionally, many believed that by fighting against Germany in World War 1, all German-American's had proved their loyalty beyond any more doubt.

Lastly, Germany had its greatest waves of immigration to the America's either before the US was even a nation, or during its infancy.

Italians were a 'new' wave of immigration, pushed into ghettos due to existing social bigotry, and easily differentiated from the normal phenotypic blend of older immigrant populations that became the white American norm.

----

Personally, I believe that this is better stated as ethnic discrimination. In Europe, Africa, and Asia---all 'old world' continents---there is less of a tendency to trumpet ones own race. Rather people have the view that their ethnicity is the best, their bloodline lineage is the best, their family heritage is the best. Discrimination there takes the form of Germany believing that anyone who isn't german is low-class---which includes Spaniards, Italians, British, Russians, Poles, Finns, etc.

In the US today, ethnicity has been de-emphasized with a greater focus being put on race and religion, which is to our detriment in understanding both historical treatment of immigrants, and also current day treatment of immigrants.

For example: why are so many people against Syrians, but view Saudi's as tolerable? Why is Yemen seen less favourable than Oman?

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#187

Using this as a criticism of Trump's travel ban is a false equivalency. There have literally been a rash of terrorist attacks in Europe perpetrated by radicalized Syrians, Somalians, and Iranians. Not to mention the knife attack from Somalian refugee (who was getting a free ride) at Ohio State. Read through these lists and tell me there is nothing to be worried about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_i…

> Its ok to protect yourself when there is a conceivable threat.

But that's not the argument.

The argument is about if the policy put forth by Trump&Co make sense given the data. To ONLY part of the data for policy decisions makes no sense.

Consider this:

Immigrants and refugees commit crimes at lower rates than others. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/us-record-shows-refugees... https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-sa...

Comparatively, what is the threat of terrorism: http://www.businessinsider.com/death-risk-statistics-terrori...

I cannot speak to the vetting process for allowing refugees into European countries, however the current vetting process is a lengthy 1 1/2 - 2 year process. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2015/11/20/infogra...

Do our policies make sense: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/01/tr...

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, like I said, many groups have been labeled terrorist. That's irrelevant though.

That seems like the opposite of the argument you're making, so not only is it relevant, but it also seems like a non-sequitur rebuttal. What am I missing?

My argument is not that the "terrorist" label that is unique about Muslims; it's that the frequency, scope, and violence of their actions is unique.

Disagree, but at least disagree with what I said :)

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see anyone try to advance a similar line of argument citing the past or present hostility existing between the Japanese, Chinese, and Korean peoples as proof that "East Asians" don't really exist and are merely some kind of social construct--let alone with the non-obvious corollary that the peoples wrongly socially constructed as "East Asian," not really existing as such, should therefore immediately op…

I'm impressed by the number of fallacies you manged to cram into a single run-on sentence.

I think I characterized by analogy the argument of both the article and the grandparent quite well: "Because many Anglo-Saxons despised the Irish and Italians a century ago, white people don't really exist as anything more than a social construct (someone apparently forgot to tell the NIH, CDC, and 23andme this), and the opposition to mass immigration from Somalia, Syria, or other countries in those regions is a result of prejudice against and fear of a socially-constructed non-white 'other.'"

Where are the articles arguing that "East Asians," "Indians," "Arabs," or other racial groups are just social constructs and that these peoples consequently lack the right to control the immigration policy of their respective nation-states?

Re: During WWII, U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a Threat to Homeland Security

#190
post #38
post #19

> By the 1920s, pseudo-scientists and polemicists in the 1920s popularized the notion that Italians were a separate race from Anglo-Americans. These scientists were 'pseudo' only in retrospect. It literally took a world war to knock eugenicists out of the mainstream. As we pat ourselves on the back today for being so rational and enlightened, we would do well to remember episodes like that and restore some sense of h…

Just to be clear, this was not a small group of pseudo intellectuals. Eugenics was applauded almost universally by Progessives and Conservatives among others. Included we can count J. Maynard Keynes, Irving Fischer ('prevention of breeding of the worst'), Gunnar Myrdal (economics Nobel Prize) Bernard Shaw, Harold Laski, Sidney Webb and Julian Huxley, Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill and dozens of other famous n…

Very true. While postmodernist philosophy is often denounced for its embrace of relativism the implicit aversion to moral absolutes, I would argue that it's the inevitable reaction to an excess of certitude during the modernist period and the resultant atrocities. This has a philosophical parallel in the excess of certitude afforded by religion. I'm arguing not that religion or science or political ideologies are inherently violent , but that once the tenets of a belief are accorded axiomatic status, an epistemological break with reality occurs and the fanatical response to the cognitive dissonance that inevitably results is to attempt to bring reality into line with the subjective belief.

This is well summarized by cultural theorist Slavoj Zizek; if you have Netflix then I heartily recommend watching the whole of this film there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37RLn28mrLU

Of course nobody is immune from this. I have subjective beliefs that I treat as axiomatic and I'm sure Zizek does too; it would be hard to get through the day if you weren't able to take anything for granted. But when we are engaged in philosophical thought, we should seek to minimize the axiomatic content of our argument and be clear about our reasons for designating some subjective beliefs as axiomatic. I believe strongly in a natural right of self-defense, for example. To justify this (to myself, not necessarily to anyone else), I observe that in nature, when animals or even plants are attacked and there is no possibility of evading the attack, they attempt to retaliate in some fashion in hopes of causing their antagonist to break off the attack. Of course I could be falling victim to a naturalistic fallacy here, and indeed there's a strong argument in western culture that the willing sacrifice of the individual self in pursuit of some collective good is a more effective strategy than direct confrontation; however the utilitarian argument for this course is predicated on the existence of an afterlife - if not in the sense of a physical heaven and hell, then in the sense of a collective memory of the sacrifice which informs the future behavior of the collective organism.

This too is an axiomatic belief for many people, but it in turn is subject to question; one might argue that is the death of ~6 million Jewish people during the Holocaust, most of whom went to their deaths compliantly rather than confrontationally is the largest identifiable sacrifice in accordance with a general principle of non-violence, how is it that only a few generations later anti-semitism has become fashionable once more, and there is a social contingent eager to resume such genocidal activities under the auspices of some warmed-over conjectures about racial superiority. Insofar as there's a conflict between the natural instinct to retaliate (which may or may not scale) and the social imperative to sacrifice oneself (which may or may not improve the strategic position of the embattled social group) I lean towards the natural instinct because it's the product of millions of years of evolutionary competition vs. thousands of years of social cooperation, but I feel like it would be a mistake to uncritically adopt either position as the correct one and then never question it again.

This may seem very abstract and intangible when I express it in philosophical terms, but given the high level of political polarization and the various socioeconomic and geopolitical circumstances that obtain today, we are or soon will be forced to make decisions on the basis of such fundamental beliefs and then live or die with the consequences. I claim, therefore, that an examination of our fundamental beliefs and the means by which we qualify them is a matter of grave urgency, because under sufficient stress we default to acting without thinking, and those actions are the products of the beliefs that we choose to hold.

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