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An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

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Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#261

Post by chrisbennet »

danielweber wrote: post #260
chrisbennet wrote: post #254

A contract needs a couple of things in order to be valid: 1. A meeting of minds i.e. both parties agree on something. 2. Consideration; usually money. (This is why you sometimes see donated things sold for a dollar.) When faced with signing a new contract that asks for more of something, I'd recommend asking for consideration of some sort. (1) "Oh, new contract? Let's talk about my new salary." (1) At least if you're…

Continued employment counts as consideration in many states.

The old "I won't beat you up if you stop seeing my sister." "consideration".

But you make a good point that I wasn't aware of.

That's why it only works if you're in a field like software development where you have some leverage.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#262

Post by snmartin »

adekok wrote: post #256
hluska wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be so focused on making your point that you have stopped reading the comments you are replying to. At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now. Rather, the parent made some reasonable points: A.) Smart developers would not sign shitty contracts. B.) When a smart developer asked questions about the contract, his questions were flat out ignored. C.) Now that there is an outcry, the f…

> At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now BinaryIdiot seems to be implying that I asked for Gigster to change right now . And then there's this bizarre comment by him: > > what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder? I could similarly ask him what he wants from engaging with me. > > Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology That's…

I think his point was: this thread made it clear that Gigster was being sketchy. The founder realized this and promised he'd fix it. Other than "go back in time and change their past policy" it seems like they're reacting to this situation in a reasonable way. No one disagrees that the original interaction was bad, but is it productive to keep harping on that when the founder seems to be making a good-faith effort to make it right?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#263

Post by BinaryIdiot »

snmartin wrote: post #262
adekok wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now BinaryIdiot seems to be implying that I asked for Gigster to change right now . And then there's this bizarre comment by him: > > what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder? I could similarly ask him what he wants from engaging with me. > > Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology That's…

I think his point was: this thread made it clear that Gigster was being sketchy. The founder realized this and promised he'd fix it. Other than "go back in time and change their past policy" it seems like they're reacting to this situation in a reasonable way. No one disagrees that the original interaction was bad, but is it productive to keep harping on that when the founder seems to be making a good-faith effort to…

This is exactly what I was attempting to convey. Re-reading the thread it still looks as if I accomplished that but based on the downvotes and confusion I'm guessing I didn't.

Oh well I guess.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#264

Post by BinaryIdiot »

adekok wrote: post #256
hluska wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be so focused on making your point that you have stopped reading the comments you are replying to. At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now. Rather, the parent made some reasonable points: A.) Smart developers would not sign shitty contracts. B.) When a smart developer asked questions about the contract, his questions were flat out ignored. C.) Now that there is an outcry, the f…

> At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now BinaryIdiot seems to be implying that I asked for Gigster to change right now . And then there's this bizarre comment by him: > > what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder? I could similarly ask him what he wants from engaging with me. > > Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology That's…

> BinaryIdiot seems to be implying that I asked for Gigster to change right now.

I covered this here:

> So I wasn't sure what you wanted your comment to accomplish. Sounded like it wasn't fast enough but if that's not the case what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder? Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology? What was your goal to avoid me from construing your argument any further?

> I could similarly ask him what he wants from engaging with me.

I was seeking an understanding of your comment and what you wanted to accomplish. From my point of view it appeared that the founder responded to the issue in the best way they legally could and then you just repeated the issue at him. Seemed less useful, more "I just want to be angry at you". hence why I asked.

HN is a community in which many interact with one another to seek better understanding, discussion around a topic, etc.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#265

Post by BinaryIdiot »

hluska wrote: post #236
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how I did anything to your argument. The original poster showed the email, the founder responded saying they're going to review the contracts because what's in there is not their intent, figure it out and then add a FAQ. You replied to the founder with a simple regurgitation of the issue and nothing more. The issue the founder just said they will be addressing in the comment you replied to. So I wasn't…

You seem to be so focused on making your point that you have stopped reading the comments you are replying to. At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now. Rather, the parent made some reasonable points: A.) Smart developers would not sign shitty contracts. B.) When a smart developer asked questions about the contract, his questions were flat out ignored. C.) Now that there is an outcry, the f…

> You seem to be so focused on making your point that you have stopped reading the comments you are replying to.

I disagree and felt I had already made my point and was attempting to clarify. But that's okay. Maybe I didn't convey it well enough?

I find emoting and conveying discussion points over a forum style doesn't always carry what my intent is and sometimes comes off wrong. Thanks for the feedback.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#266

Post by gejjaxxita »

jblok wrote: post #77
TamDenholm wrote: post #32

I do contract work a lot in the UK through recruitment agencies. I very often provide feedback like this, especially when i'm asked to opt-out of the agency regulations. I never opt out, every single time i get the a response along the lines of "In my 20+ years of recruiting we've never had any problems with the contractor not opting out of the agency regulations, you're the first person to ever do that. Can i ask wh…

What are your reasons for declining to opt-out, out of interest? I looked into this law (the actual wording of the law itself even) and found it to be mostly harmless. I also came across the wording which nullifies the entire regulation from being enforced if you opt-out after an introduction, which happens in 99% of cases, so I wasn't too worried.

This is my thoughts exactly. I don't mind signing the opt out because it always follows an interview.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#267

Post by Tenhundfeld »

pjschlic wrote: post #233
Tenhundfeld wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been counseled that an employer cannot compel you to sign a new contract after starting a job, unless there is an incentive to offset any rights/benefits being forfeited. There's a huge gray area in terms of incentive/benefit value, but it's clearly illegal if there are no advantages offered by the new contract and it only benefits the employer. In other words, it would be clearly illegal for an employer to say…

Counterpoint: my sister is an NP in Illinois and her employer did effectively this. She was asked to sign a new contract with strictly less benefits after having worked there for 9 months (specifically I think they wanted to reduce the vacation). She countered with requesting some compensation increase to offset the decrease in vacation, and they fired her. IANAL, but I'm also assuming that in at-will employment case…

Yeah, I'm sure it depends on the state.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#268

Post by Tenhundfeld »

dpark wrote: post #234
Tenhundfeld wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been counseled that an employer cannot compel you to sign a new contract after starting a job, unless there is an incentive to offset any rights/benefits being forfeited. There's a huge gray area in terms of incentive/benefit value, but it's clearly illegal if there are no advantages offered by the new contract and it only benefits the employer. In other words, it would be clearly illegal for an employer to say…

> I've been counseled that an employer cannot compel you to sign a new contract after starting a job, unless there is an incentive to offset any rights/benefits being forfeited. I would consider new council. I'm fairly certain that continued employment is enough "incentive" to make the contract legally binding. If you're an at-will employee, they can fire you at any moment, so any new contract seems as enforceable as…

No, continued employment is not incentive, not under the law explained to me when I lived in AL.

Anyway, it varies by state and the exact situation. It's not necessarily true for any change, only if it withdraws a substantial right, e.g., forces arbitration or changes the nature of IP ownership. If you are concerned, talk to a local lawyer.

My real point was that it's not necessarily true that you just are automatically bound by the updated contract or that you have to sign it. It might be true, might not.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#269

Post by [deleted] »

danielweber wrote: post #259
hatfieej wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone through this before and the law is very clear that continued employment is not a valid compensation for changing the terms of your employment. The original employment agreement was the contract you are bound by. Coming to work each day is just both of you continuing to abide by the original contract. As you mentioned, the other side is the at-will part. It's pretty easy for them to just decide to dismiss yo…

> I've gone through this before and the law is very clear that continued employment is not a valid compensation for changing the terms of your employment. Please do not say things like this. A worker in Massachusetts, Illinois, or New York may read what you said, believe you because you said "the law is very clear," sign a new agreement thinking they got one over, and then roll out the other side to realize "oh, shit…

[deleted]

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#270

Post by adekok »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #264
adekok wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At no point did the parent say that Gigster had to change right now BinaryIdiot seems to be implying that I asked for Gigster to change right now . And then there's this bizarre comment by him: > > what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder? I could similarly ask him what he wants from engaging with me. > > Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology That's…

> BinaryIdiot seems to be implying that I asked for Gigster to change right now. I covered this here: > So I wasn't sure what you wanted your comment to accomplish. Sounded like it wasn't fast enough but if that's not the case what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder? Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology? What was your goal to avoid me from construin…

> I was seeking an understanding of your comment and what you wanted to accomplish. From my point of view it appeared that the founder responded to the issue in the best way they legally could

If that was true, the contractor would have been able to get the contract updated when he originally requested. And the original article wouldn't have been written.

> and then you just repeated the issue at him

I didn't "just" repeat the issue at him. Again, your inability to read text as written is showing.

I added an illustrative story from my own experience to show why such negotiations (even if addressed later due to larger publicity) come across as being in bad faith. As I saw in my story, as we saw in this case.

And then you went off the deep end with various accusations and projections.

It just came across badly.

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