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An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

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Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#221

Post by maxxxxx »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #78
TamDenholm wrote: post #32

I do contract work a lot in the UK through recruitment agencies. I very often provide feedback like this, especially when i'm asked to opt-out of the agency regulations. I never opt out, every single time i get the a response along the lines of "In my 20+ years of recruiting we've never had any problems with the contractor not opting out of the agency regulations, you're the first person to ever do that. Can i ask wh…

I don't think I ever signed an agency contract without heavily adjusting some clauses. I would simply state I can't sign as is. The only times I got pushback (rare) an annotated letter from accountant or PCG (now IPSE I think) contract review and the agency buckled. I also demanded proof that the agency-client contract matched on IR35 terms. Was never once caught by it. Does the agent want to lose commission? Does th…

When I was a freelancer changing the contract was a good way to gauge the level of respect you are receiving. If they say "take it or leave it" or "don't worry about it. It's in the contract but never causes problems" or "this is policy" the client doesn't respect you as a business partner and you will get problems later on. A good client will engage in discussion as long as your changes are not frivolous.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#222

Post by logicallee »

ghurtado wrote: post #192
logicallee wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing anti-developer in what I wrote. (Or the original reply.) If I received such an email in response to my own question I would be reassured. I'm not towing/toeing the company line here. There's simply nothing wrong here. -- EDIT: in reply to your followup, no, I googled and it's some Trump spokesperson? (communications director). Basically I took it (in this comment I added this edit to) that you were sa…

You don't know who Sean Spicer is, do you?

can you explain?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#223

Post by toomuchtodo »

throwaway49857 wrote: post #162
throwaway212017 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't changed. Gigster PMs seem to be in charge of staffing projects, but the strategy for connecting developers with projects is vague. They seem to look for either people they have worked with before, or people who are active on Slack (so if you are, for example, an Android dev, the advice is to be active on the Android Slack channel). PMs as a group hoard information on projects: devs have almost no visibility…

I'm another current gigster, using a throwaway because I want to avoid retaliation. I'm posting this because Im really frustrated and about to leave gigster. I just want to confirm everything you wrote there. Gigs dried up around october, meaning devs/designers that didnt have tons of PM contacts simply havent had any gigs for the past few months. This was raised multiple times, and HQ always promises to do something…

> Finally, the cherry on top - gigster, like other shops that hire contractors, is required to send a 1099 to the contractor and to the IRS by January 31st. As you can imagine, they've kinda failed here too. A lot of people didn't get their 1099s and a lot of people are reporting errors on their 1099s. It looks like they outsourced this out and whoever did it messed up transferring data from contractors' W9 into the 1099.

> For example, if you received miscellaneous income in 2016 that is non-employee compensation, the paying institution or individual must issue Form 1099-MISC by January 31, 2017. If the institution fails to do so, the penalty against the company varies from $30 to $100 per form ($500,000 maximum per year), depending on how long past the deadline the company issues the form. If a company intentionally disregards the requirement to provide a correct payee statement, it is subject to a minimum penalty of $250 per statement, with no maximum.

https://www.irs.gov/government-entities/federal-state-local-...

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#224

Post by st3v3r »

danielweber wrote: post #186
st3v3r wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might be bluffing. But considering you've just left your old job, most people are not willing to take that chance.

This is why everyone should demand to see the IP agreement during negotiation.

This is why they should be outright banned.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#225

Post by logfromblammo »

danielweber wrote: post #190
logfromblammo wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides that, you're endangering the contractness of your contract if the other party cannot negotiate any of its terms, and indicates any confusion over just what it is he or she may be agreeing to--especially if they express their confusion in a document that can later be produced in court . If I were to sign that "contract", I would certainly send the other party a written "signing statement" that interprets all p…

> mentions that I received no valuable consideration for signing it Them hiring you counts as consideration.

Did I get a retainer or a signing bonus?

I have been an "at will" employee for too long to believe that acquiring that status with anyone is worth anything at all. I was once "hired" by TekSystems in Madison, Wisconsin, to work at American Family Insurance. I filled out all the paperwork, got the coffee mug and pen, and was ready to go. Then, the Sunday evening before going to work, I got a call.... Don't bother showing up tomorrow.

So the next day, instead of starting a new job, I called up my American Family Insurance agent and cancelled my policies. That wasn't even the first time that I was "hired" by a company and then never actually got any work assignments or pay from them.

"Hiring" doesn't mean jack squat. It just means that the company has decided that it may, in the future, offer you a work assignment without requiring additional contract negotiations, pay you for it, and then report your tax info on a W-2 instead of a 1099. The essential relationship is the exchange of labor for pay. Anything I can do as an employee, I can also do as an independent contractor, and any "employment benefit" can be exchanged for an adjustment in the contract rate. So what is the "hiring" part worth? $0.

It is the height of arrogance to think that being able to say "I am an employee at Company X" is worth more than one square of low-grade single-ply toilet paper. And it is the height of stupidity to claim that you have to be an employee to exchange labor for cash.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#226

Post by BinaryIdiot »

adekok wrote: post #211
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what would you like them to do? They're aware of it (and this thread obviously shined a brighter light on it) and are going to go over it with their lawyers. Isn't that reasonable? Contract changes don't exactly come quickly especially with expensive lawyers involved. I'm just not sure what you would like them to do about it right now .

> I'm just not sure what you would like them to do about it right now. The point is that when the contractor asked for changes, he got told to go stuff himself. It's only when there's larger publicity that they suggested the contract can change. And, TBH, it's ridiculous to construe my argument as they have to change right now . They were asked to change, and they refused. That's a problem. What part of that do you n…

I fail to see how I did anything to your argument. The original poster showed the email, the founder responded saying they're going to review the contracts because what's in there is not their intent, figure it out and then add a FAQ. You replied to the founder with a simple regurgitation of the issue and nothing more. The issue the founder just said they will be addressing in the comment you replied to.

So I wasn't sure what you wanted your comment to accomplish. Sounded like it wasn't fast enough but if that's not the case what do you actually want from this conversation with the founder? Do you want him to apologize to you? Do you want them to issue a public apology? What was your goal to avoid me from construing your argument any further?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#227

Post by jjnoakes »

nitrogen wrote: post #160
jjnoakes wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't advocate for making willfully misleading statements to one's employer which might have legal repercussions (IANAL, etc).

One's employer is unlikely to be so forthright with their future plans. It should not be misleading to reveal only the minimum information necessary to a potentially hostile actor (speaking culturally, not legally).

> It should not be misleading to reveal only the minimum information necessary to a potentially hostile actor

I have no problem with this. But I see a big difference between asking one's employer "If I was already working on a project in my free time and wanted to take it further, what would I do?" and "I haven't started working on anything yet, but if I wanted to, what do I do?", when one has indeed started something already.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#228

Post by BinaryIdiot »

x1798DE wrote: post #218
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, what would you like them to do? They're aware of it (and this thread obviously shined a brighter light on it) and are going to go over it with their lawyers. Isn't that reasonable? Contract changes don't exactly come quickly especially with expensive lawyers involved. I'm just not sure what you would like them to do about it right now .

Honestly, it seems like they're doing the right thing now, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the answer to this is, "They shouldn't have put it there in the first place." Yes, it's probably some stock-standard boilerplate contract, but if companies can write contracts that contractors accept only on the assumption that they'll never be enforced, then when someone calls them out for it, they get to sa…

> it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the answer to this is, "They shouldn't have put it there in the first place."

Maybe? If you say a clause shouldn't be in there couldn't a lawyer immediately take you to court and get the document invalidated?

I wouldn't rush to saying anything about the contract IMO.

> Yes, it's probably some stock-standard boilerplate contract, but if companies can write contracts that contractors accept only on the assumption that they'll never be enforced, then when someone calls them out for it, they get to say, "Oh, people hate this? We'll change it (now).", what gives people the incentive to start with reasonble terms.

Gigster is a YC company so "move fast, break things" etc. They probably went with what was the fastest / cheapest at the time, no one had an issue with it and it was never brought up.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#229

Post by jjnoakes »

ghurtado wrote: post #171
jjnoakes wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't advocate for making willfully misleading statements to one's employer which might have legal repercussions (IANAL, etc).

1. There's nothing willfully misleading about asking a hypothetical question 2. You do not have an "absolute transparency" duty to your employer about all aspects of your personal life. Please don't behave as if you do.

> There's nothing willfully misleading about asking a hypothetical question

Except the person I replied to wasn't advocating for "asking hypothetical questions", they were advocating for "it doesn't matter if you started a side project or not, when you ask your employer about how to move forward, make all efforts to imply or directly say that you haven't started a side project yet". That's not right.

> You do not have an "absolute transparency" duty to your employer

I agree, but I think there's a huge spectrum between "no absolute transparency" and "lying to my employer" and I don't think it's right (and it's probably not legal in the context we're discussing, but IANAL) to tell one's employer one hasn't started a side project when one has.

> Please don't behave as if you do.

Please explain how "don't lie to your employer about potentially legally important matters" is the same as "behaving like you have an absolute transparency duty to your employer".

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#230

Post by x1798DE »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #228
x1798DE wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, it seems like they're doing the right thing now, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the answer to this is, "They shouldn't have put it there in the first place." Yes, it's probably some stock-standard boilerplate contract, but if companies can write contracts that contractors accept only on the assumption that they'll never be enforced, then when someone calls them out for it, they get to sa…

> it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the answer to this is, "They shouldn't have put it there in the first place." Maybe? If you say a clause shouldn't be in there couldn't a lawyer immediately take you to court and get the document invalidated? I wouldn't rush to saying anything about the contract IMO. > Yes, it's probably some stock-standard boilerplate contract, but if companies can write contracts tha…

My point was that there's not always something to be done "now", and sometimes when you "break things" it, shockingly, has negative consequences that forward-looking changes can't necessarily undo.
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