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Computer Science Education

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Re: Computer Science Education

#131

Post by dwaltrip »

wolfgke wrote: post #128
dwaltrip wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently it's your problem as well, because you appear to be personally upset by a program that only helps them.

I am always upset over discriminatory programs. If one would replace "women only" by "white people only", you would probably be upset, too.

How do you feel about Spanish language programming courses? What about affordable housing?

How do you define discrimination? I think there isn't a clear line, and we have to use our evolving best judgment depending on the context.

How else can we attempt to more quickly resolve unfortunate and unfair dynamics the past has brought us?

Lastly, I think it's a mistake to assume all discrimination is zero sum. We will all reap benefits from previously disadvantaged groups receiving more opportunity.

Re: Computer Science Education

#132

Post by reitanqild »

mcguire wrote: post #120
reitanqild wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem for you. And I have learned to live with it but as a young boy it was extremely frustrating to see girls getting advantages throughout the whole school system just for being girls. Now I am fully aware that I have certain advantages ("privileges") as well but as I said: when you are young this can be extremely frustrating.

It's frustrating because you don't have all of the advantages, or just the advantage that you really want?

It is frustrating because as a kid/young adult you don't see the full picture : you only see you are being discriminated against.

It is frustrating because for many young men the disadvantages often seems to outweigh the advantages.

It is frustrating because as a kid/young adult some of the the countermeasures are so broad that they are hard to understand as anything but pushing one gender ahead at all cost: try to make sense of the fact that for years there was extra study points for women in higher education, including studies where female students were overrepresented like chemistry and nurse studies. (Yes, now it has been adjusted somewhat from what I see.)

Edit: and it is frustrating because it seems unfair. It seems almost like we have a built in "fairness" scale which is miscalibrated so by default it only detects unfairness against me: like when a kid go and have a really great time and come home and are angry their siblings got a candy while they were away :-/

Re: Computer Science Education

#133

Post by NotSammyHagar »

defnfoo wrote: post #118
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was past 40 when I was hired at Google, worked there for almost 10 years, knew many other older devs. I disagree that they were discriminatory. At least in my experience, that was not an issue.

The experience of those filing the law suit differs from yours. You may have known some older devs, but the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42. Google itself is not very diverse by most metrics. Maybe they should practice what they preach? http://time.com/4391031/google-diversity-statistics-2016/

That article is mostly about female to male ratios. Certainly we need more women programmers, but there aren't enough to hire. Every company I've ever worked at wanted more women, but there aren't enough graduates. At google, one way they were able to hire women devs was to pay for women were were stem students to go to the grace murray hopper conference who were cs students and then interview them and hire them on the spot. I know one very successful person at google who was found and hired by this strategy. You have to be faster than the other company to snap up those desirable hires.

I didn't mean to be an apologist for them, but this is one area I have personal knowledge of. It's probably true that they aren't going out of their way to hire old programmers like me. I don't think they pay for old white guy devs who cost more in salary than a new grad (but we have more experience! :-)) to go to a special conference and try to hire them. Instead I had to pass the usual interview bar. It was really hard and I admit to being proud I passed it.

Re: Computer Science Education

#134

Post by reader5000 »

pliptvo wrote: post #67
pdyck wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can sometimes (seem) abrasive and uninviting Well that's just discriminating against nerds

> Well that's just discriminating against nerds This is exactly the problem. You've assumed that 'nerds' -- people who are skilled and passionate about tech things -- are male. It's that kind of assumption which enforces a massive mental barrier for women to be able to consider themselves legitimately passionate and skilled about tech, and also for men to recognise them as such too. Until the association of nerds wit…

"Stereotypes" come from patterns in empirical reality. They are not created and administered by some Evil White Male committee as you seem to think. Women are in no way discriminated against in tech, nor have they ever been. Passionate and skilled women in tech certainly exist, they are just relatively rare. Withholding resources from boys because of their gender actually is discrimination, and should not be encouraged.

Re: Computer Science Education

#135

Post by rifung »

defnfoo wrote: post #118
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was past 40 when I was hired at Google, worked there for almost 10 years, knew many other older devs. I disagree that they were discriminatory. At least in my experience, that was not an issue.

The experience of those filing the law suit differs from yours. You may have known some older devs, but the numbers are very clear: the average age of a google employee is 29. The US national average is 42. Google itself is not very diverse by most metrics. Maybe they should practice what they preach? http://time.com/4391031/google-diversity-statistics-2016/

Disclaimer: I work at Google (opinions are my own)

How would the people filing the lawsuit know whether Google didn't hire them due to their age or for other reasons? I see posts all the time about people complaining they didn't get into company X because of some silly reason but frankly, unless you are the interviewer you likely will never know the reason. Shouldn't we wait to see the outcome of the case?

Indeed Google itself is not as diverse as we would like to be, but that's actually the reason we have these outreach programs: to try to get a more diverse applicant pool, which hopefully will translate to a more diverse workforce.

The average age being 29 doesn't surprise me because there are many more young applicants than there are older ones, since CS is getting more and more popular. Not only that but typically a larger company will have more junior developers than senior ones, and most junior developers are also more junior in age.

I don't know whether Google discriminates by age since I don't have the numbers, but I will say that Google takes diversity and inclusivity extremely seriously. I don't think a day goes by that I don't see a post asking for volunteers for some activity to promote diversity. That being the case, it would surprise me if we discriminate in a systemic way. For some individuals to do so unconsciously wouldn't surprise me just because it's human nature to be biased, although we do our best to unlearn that behavior.

Re: Computer Science Education

#136

Post by Chris2048 »

eru wrote: post #63
Chris2048 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arbitrarily discriminating against gingers isn't the same as not doing extra work to make the videos more accessible. Further more, the right to run a business, and participate in a particular economy, is regulated in many ways - these videos were given away for free to everyone, possibly at cost. I don't think a free educational resource should have to meet this burden.

I'm not sure whether it makes a difference, but in my example the biased employer was arbitrarily discriminating in favour of gingers.

Yes, I was suggesting your example was different to the situation in the article, or not relevant in the same way.

Re: Computer Science Education

#137

Post by reader5000 »

pliptvo wrote: post #105
paulddraper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the problem? Discrimination. It has been justified for centuries with all manner of reasoned arguments. Hopefully we will eventually learn discrimination is a Bad Idea.

Discrimination isn't just an idea, it's a material reality. Women are systematically disadvantaged on every level of tech, from the assumption that 'nerds' are boys, which seems to go back to IT marketing from the 1980s[1], to their being prevented from holding senior offices in the biggest tech corporations. They are discriminated against by a male-dominated industry and culture. Only when the systemic, material con…

Your evidence of "material reality" is just you repeating your claim.

Re: Computer Science Education

#138

Post by wolfgke »

metaobject wrote: post #125
wolfgke wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > So you tolerate that a complete sex shall be punished for former sins > This is not a zero-sum game. Creating a new opportunity for girls does not remove an existing opportunity for a boy. Not when quotas are involved. In Germany, where I live, every few years serious attempts to introduce women quota for companies are attempted to pass as a law (which typically are only prevented in the last moment because of ma…

So are there any gender quotas currently in place?

Some political parties already have quotas in their statutes for a long time (Die Grünen (Green Party) - 50%; SPD - 30% I think).

Since Januar 2016 gender quotas for the supervisory council of the 106 largest market-listed companies were introduced. For restaffing in the supervisory council there is a quota of 30% for both gender (or the position has to be left vacant).

Wikipedia link:

> https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frauenquote&oldid...

Here a Reuters article about the topic:

> http://web.archive.org/web/20160619090749/http://de.reuters....

Here an "official" article by the Federal Minestry for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth ["Federal Minestry for everybody except men" ;-) ]:

> https://www.bmfsfj.de/bmfsfj/themen/gleichstellung/frauen-un...

Re: Computer Science Education

#139

Post by [deleted] »

pliptvo wrote: post #67
pdyck wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can sometimes (seem) abrasive and uninviting Well that's just discriminating against nerds

> Well that's just discriminating against nerds This is exactly the problem. You've assumed that 'nerds' -- people who are skilled and passionate about tech things -- are male. It's that kind of assumption which enforces a massive mental barrier for women to be able to consider themselves legitimately passionate and skilled about tech, and also for men to recognise them as such too. Until the association of nerds wit…

[deleted]

Re: Computer Science Education

#140

Post by mcguire »

randomdata wrote: post #104
derrickdirge wrote: post #59

I was really hoping this was going to provide some path to completing my CS degree. At least they're acknowledging the importance of education.

What is the importance of a CS education? I honestly don't feel like my exposure to CS has changed my life in any way outside of my career. If I imagine some future where I am retired, it is not obvious to me where I will use anything I have learned or how it will shape me into being a better person. It certainly has been useful to me in finding gainful employment, but if that is the only thing it brings to the table…

Really? I find myself touching on some part of my CS education almost every day, and I'm not currently employed. But then, I got into CS because I enjoyed it, back when it wasn't the hot new job skill.

It's as much part of who I am as bitter cynicism and an inordinate love of fried rice.

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